Every Tank should have dps/tank stance be off-GCD and not reset their combo

[winsock]

This is all well and good if tanking was about "surviving", but its not. It's about surviving and keeping threat and contributing to the group. With the exception of progression content there isn't a tankbuster in the game that will kill a WAR outside of defiance. Its not like PLD gets hit for a million dmg less. I think your overstating the squishiness of WAR.

The actual dmg being taken doesn't matter in the context of the argument. I was using easy values for the sake of showing the point which is:
Shield stance increases your ehp.
Defiance doesn't do anything on its own. It requires a follow-up action before it will benefit you at all

[pandabearcat]

snip

I don't really know what you're going for here, but I have the feeling you don't like me. Why? Please learn to separate the argument from the person.

I literally wrote a sim to specifically test for "little changes" like this, but that's not really here nor there. Here's the thing: if you don't see warriors abusing this - then pld/drk would be even LESS inclined to abuse this. They actually have a cost to their swaps. As a result they are very tied to a stance in pld's case, or possibly literally can't swap in DRK's case, if they ran out of mp.

I don't understand your post, you make claims then refuse to actually argue the meat of the matter, which is why this change would be a bad thing? I only went off on the chocobo thing because people keep bringing up tangents, and people keep bringing up nonsense straw men arguments over skills that aren't even remotely relevant.

Noone has even really made a good point on the whole "defiance isn't instant" thing. Can you give an example where my example would fail? I'm not really sure what this argument is. Can I provide an example that isn't <insert derogatory adjective here>? Whats wrong with my example? Does my example not happen in 99% of gameplay? Are you regularly on the verge of being one shotted when you go to deliverance?

My reasons for wanting this change all have to deal with gameplay, NOT balance. And therefore the reasons are not super compelling "this class is mathematically worse than this other, please bring it up to line" kind of dealios. Simply I dislike the way it works, I want it to change, and apparently people that this change won't even affect are all up in arms.

[karateorangutang]

Stances, I just feel is a basic enough aspect that should be as smooth and easy to switch as possible for any Job with it.

I don't disagree at all. As the game feels that it encourages you to deal damage and constantly adjust to the situation I would agree that all jobs should have access to abilities that help them do so.

[stoxastic]

My reasons for wanting this change all have to deal with gameplay, NOT balance. And therefore the reasons are not super compelling "this class is mathematically worse than this other, please bring it up to line" kind of dealios. Simply I dislike the way it works, I want it to change, and apparently people that this change won't even affect are all up in arms.

If you won't even acknowledge that taking PLD stances off GCD is an undeniable buff then there's no use debating with you. You're asking for a buff, people are saying it's not necessary, that's it.

[karateorangutang]

The actual dmg being taken doesn't matter in the context of the argument. I was using easy values for the sake of showing the point which is:
Shield stance increases your ehp.
Defiance doesn't do anything on its own. It requires a follow-up action before it will benefit you at all

Ok, then make my stance change free. There now i dont lose resources either.

Paladin pays a fee to stance change... which im still ok with. Keep the mp cost there.

[Giantbane]

DID ANYONE MISS HOW 1337 I AM?

Devs make design decisions and changes for all sorts of reasons. This is a small change that some freaks (you) are trumping up to be some sort of massive balance swing. It's not.

[pandabearcat]

If you won't even acknowledge that taking PLD stances off GCD is an undeniable buff then there's no use debating with you. You're asking for a buff, people are saying it's not necessary, that's it.

Don't put words into my mouth. I was answering another poster's question about the motivations.

Noone said anything about denying its a buff. It is a buff. However, you will not see a dps increase higher than like, 5, I promise you. Someone brought up the lack of a cooldown - while I think the resource cost is enough to justify, I can understand that. So lets add a cooldown.

Just answer this question, If warriors are not seen to abuse defiance/deliverance swapping, why would PLD and DRK do it, since it would have a resource cost as well?.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

This is all well and good if tanking was about "surviving", but its not. It's about surviving and keeping threat and contributing to the group. With the exception of progression content there isn't a tankbuster in the game that will kill a WAR outside of defiance. Its not like PLD gets hit for a million dmg less. I think your overstating the squishiness of WAR.

As far as I can tell, winsock isn't necessarily talking about the practical differences, but the mechanical differences. You might very well say that this weakness of Defiance that he's outlining isn't a big deal, but it's still a weakness.

The point is that the tank stances don't function the same. Shield Oath and Grit mostly do, but Defiance is actually a lot different, with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. And yes, it being oGCD is one of its strengths. If Shield Oath and Grit gain this strength as well, then where does that leave Defiance?

Warrior needs to have easy access to Defiance because of how important the abilities gated behind it are. DRK has Souleater self-heal and Blood Weapon depending upon stance, but none of Paladin's toolkit depends upon their stance.

[Arkard]

snip

I can't really apologize for how you interpret text. If it seems like I'm angry over this, then you couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, your reasons all supposedly have to do with gameplay change, but yet you won't say how. And again, the fact that you won't even acknowledge that a gameplay change can cause balance problems tells me you really have no idea what it is you actually want. I think maybe what you want is to play Warrior without having to level it to 60. I honestly don't know at this point.

My point is that you can't make the claim that a change like this has no balance implications and then provide a made-up scenario as your proof. You can't have proof for this. The same way I can't have proof of the opposite. The people who do, that is, the people making the game have the means to test this and yet the abilities remain the way they are. Not only that, but SE's most recent addition to the tanking roster works the same way. ON PURPOSE.

I've said all I can on the matter. Again, I'm not here to argue why or why not; you can do that with all the other eager people here. I'm simply here to tell you it works the way it works because a group of designers decided it should. Not because of programming limitations, not because of a clunky implementation of another idea they had. No. It's on purpose.

[karateorangutang]

As far as I can tell, winsock isn't necessarily talking about the practical differences, but the mechanical differences. You might very well say that this weakness of Defiance that he's outlining isn't a big deal, but it's still a weakness.

The point is that the tank stances don't function the same. Shield Oath and Grit mostly do, but Defiance is actually a lot different, with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. And yes, it being oGCD is one of its strengths. If Shield Oath and Grit gain this strength as well, then where does that leave Defiance?

Warrior needs to have easy access to Defiance because of how important the abilities gated behind it are. DRK has Souleater self-heal and Blood Weapon depending upon stance, but none of Paladin's toolkit depends upon their stance.

Yes that's true, but if im out of MP I cant stance change either. I'm also not advocating an immediate change. I'm just saying it would be interesting and would add a layer to paladin play. Paladin's skill cap is pretty low based on its abilities. It wouldnt hurt to give it flavor.