Every Tank should have dps/tank stance be off-GCD and not reset their combo

[Phoenicia]

They should add block rate to WAR axes and DRK swords, y'know, as a QoL change. Quality of my WAR's life will greatly improve if I can block with my axe.

Yeah, I also want Brutal Swing CD changed to 2.5 seconds. That's a QoL change since PLD ALREADY has it. I mean why can the PLD stun lock targets and we can't? We're both tanks!

Also while at it, I want equilibrium to cost some MP but be used frequently instead of its 1 minute CD. PLD can heal back to full with back to back Clemency, why can't WAR do it? It's enough equilibrium is not affected by defiance. I see it fair and a QoL change.

[karateorangutang]

I've switched away from maining Paladin because the stances feel so clunky. It would be really nice to be able to make a fluid switch in stances to be able to maximize what little damage output they have while main tanking.

I'm not expert but from what i've gathered and read is that WAR is really effective in the current meta mostly due to it's ability to deal damage while in either stance and also being able to utilize their damage stance in an effective way while main tanking. I don't think it's outside of reason for a person who play's Paladin or Dark Knight to want to have that kind of functionality with it's existing job abilities.

However, I get why people would be against this. It does homogenize the existing tank classes and does take away a little bit of WAR's identity... and let's be honest, if anyone is vocal on this forum it's the WAR MT's.

I'd be in favor of it, it might even make me want to pick up PLD again, but I don't think it's a necessity to game balance. It would have to be play tested.

[Phoenicia]

Similarly, no player said "hrm, should I play pld or war? Oh whats that? WAR can go into deliverance/defiance w/o needing a GCD? Wow who would ever need those other two jobs? Screw that all war erry day"

As a matter of fact, almost every time a tank comparison is brought up, that is one of the points that are mentioned. WAR's ability to switch between dances at a moment's notice with the exception of paying a 10s CD on switching back is one of their "traits".

Either way, I play DRK and I hate the MP cost on Grit, but it's not preventing me from stance dancing. It only means I have to plan well ahead before I drop Grit for whatever benefits I may gain of if it is not worth it at all. I find that attractive actually.

PLD gets the short end of the stick with ShO + SwO mana costs equaling a Grit. They also break their combo TWICE switching.

I'll use your argument against you though, NO ONE is telling PLDs or DRKs to go delete their accounts because they can't stance dance either.

[pandabearcat]

Yeah, I also want Brutal Swing CD changed to 2.5 seconds. That's a QoL change since PLD ALREADY has it. I mean why can the PLD stun lock targets and we can't? We're both tanks!

Also while at it, I want equilibrium to cost some MP but be used frequently instead of its 1 minute CD. PLD can heal back to full with back to back Clemency, why can't WAR do it? It's enough equilibrium is not affected by defiance. I see it fair and a QoL change.

I just love you guys, none of these even remotely apply.

For example, sure, you can have brutal swing to 2.5 seconds.

Sure, if you want it to interrupt your combo, and be on GCD.

Sure, if you want to spend 150 tp for it.

Oh whats that? For all intents and purposes, the warrior stun is MUCH MUCH BETTER IN PRACTICE than the pali one? Are you guys being serious right now? I would -kill- to have a war or drk stun. My god. Its like, you guys don't even know how good you have it.

Did you also forget enemies go immune after 3 stuns? So you can drain half your tp to "stun lock" an enemy for a total of 7 seconds, and do no damage. Or you can realize not a single boss is designed around the pali stun, and your stun is infinitely superior because you only need to use it when its up, and it costs you no resources, nor does it reset your combo nor use a gcd. Holy crap. Please take a step back and look at what you're even trying to argue.

If our FC did not already have a WAR and we didn't need rage of halone, i would go war in a heartbeat. Paladin is by far the WORST tank if you have competent healers. There is simply no contest here.

Sure have equilibrium be on GCD, kill combo, be interruptible, and literally cost half your mana to cast.

Oh whats that, your heal is already better...?

Be honest guys...do you really know what you're asking for...? Do you seriously think these cherry picked skills would be better than your currrent, fantastic kit?

And did you forget what this was even asking for? Literally something that would not affect any raid comp, at all.

I'll use your argument against you though, NO ONE is telling PLDs or DRKs to go delete their accounts because they can't stance dance either.

Yes that is true. I was being facetious. But I am shocked at all the opposition. Its like, War refuse to share. It -isn't- a big deal one way or another. Just something that would make it smoother to transition. And people are still hopping on the whole "argh then you want to stance dance every other gcd op" or something. No that isn't what the point of the OP is. Maybe you think that would be abused that way, so make a CD on it. I would not care in the least. It would still be superior than the current incarnation.

[winsock]

No, it's "You're a bad tank, because you didn't use a cooldown to survive a tankbuster"

PLD could survive just by changing stance. WAR *requires* a follow-up action.

So can you see why PLD is not off gcd?

In the example,
PLD can survive using 1 'on gcd' action
WAR only survives using 1 'off gcd' plus some other action.

WAR needs to be able to take another action get any benefit from the stance change.

[Arkard]

And it is a QoL change. The amount of difference it makes is on the whole very minor, but provides more interesting gameplay.

Do you have anything but the hypothetical encounter example you provided to prove the amount of difference it makes is very minor? Your example's great, in a world where mobs use one ability at a time, there's no latency, healers aren't busy doing other things, etc. You can't simulate an encounter via text.

As to your chocobo example, I might as well say that THAT is a balance change, cause you'd no longer have to pay for an extra gysahl green, nor would you have to do a few leves/stand in town/do hunts or what have you without your chocobo - and a chocobo adds more dps/healing than losing one GCD. So yea...bad example there.

I shouldn't even touch your chocobo example, because honestly, based on your response, I get the feeling you're not a very smart person. Although that's unfair. You may very well be a physicist. Ok, so let's just call it you're not a very knowledgeable person, at least when it comes to this game. Or games in general.

So here we go: FFXIV's design decisions, and most MMO's design decisions are made around the highest tier of content. Do you have Chocobos in high-end raids? Does the extra what is it, 100 gil you save from buying a gysahl green affect the damage dealt by Oppressor? Queueing for a dungeon with a chocobo is a minor change. The DPS/healing you gain isn't enough to make a difference in content that is considered meaningful to the design team. In fact, the only reason this isn't even a thing is because it's a bitch to change the duty system to accommodate it. Really, that's all.

Again, it may very well be that Sword/Shield Oath being oGCD makes very little difference. I don't know, and I won't make claims to say that it doesn't. I don't have the tools to test the possible change, and the people who do have willingly made the decision that it should not be this way. Why? You can argue with everyone else on that point, whether it's instant mitigation or whatever the fuck you feel like talking about for the next few pages before this drops to the bottom and all is forgotten.

I'm just telling you that your reasons for wanting this balance change are incredibly weak.

[Giantbane]

PLD could survive just by changing stance. WAR *requires* a follow-up action.

So can you see why PLD is not off gcd?

In the example,
PLD can survive using 1 'on gcd' action
WAR only survives using 1 'off gcd' plus some other action.

WAR needs to be able to take another action get any benefit from the stance change.

You mean like use IB (with the stacks that you kept while swapping stances) that both restores HP and preps you for the incoming tank buster?

FFXIV's design decisions, and most MMO's design decisions are made around the highest tier of content.

Current highest tier of content:

bring WAR + WAR or DRK or PLD

balance!

[karateorangutang]

PLD could survive just by changing stance. WAR *requires* a follow-up action.

So can you see why PLD is not off gcd?

In the example,
PLD can survive using 1 'on gcd' action
WAR only survives using 1 'off gcd' plus some other action.

WAR needs to be able to take another action get any benefit from the stance change.

This is all well and good if tanking was about "surviving", but its not. It's about surviving and keeping threat and contributing to the group. With the exception of progression content there isn't a tankbuster in the game that will kill a WAR outside of defiance. Its not like PLD gets hit for a million dmg less. I think your overstating the squishiness of WAR.

[Allyrion]

However, I get why people would be against this. It does homogenize the existing tank classes and does take away a little bit of WAR's identity... and let's be honest, if anyone is vocal on this forum it's the WAR MT's.

That's true, but I think Stance dancing should always be fluid.
You can have identity in other places, but being able to change stances in a non-clunky way is just something any Job deserves.
I don't even find Cleric Stance responsive enough and it's not even on the GCD.

The rest can be balanced. Grit and Oaths can get a CD.
Like PLD has a stun without a CD, WAR has one off the gcd and so does DRK but with a longer CD (and proc to reset the CD).
That difference is similar, but that's fine to me because I don't expect them to work the same or have the same use-ability.

Stances, I just feel is a basic enough aspect that should be as smooth and easy to switch as possible for any Job with it.

[Arkard]

You mean like use IB (with the stacks that you kept while swapping stances) that both restores HP and preps you for the incoming tank buster?



Current highest tier of content:

bring WAR + WAR or DRK or PLD

balance!

Oh, is that how the top tier FCs are clearing Savage at the moment?

Seriously, no one cares that you can clear A4 on Normal. Lucrezia and Elysium aren't doing WAR + WAR. WAR + DRK? WAR + PLD? Sure, those are viable, but WAR isn't present in every raid composition because their stances are oGCD. Come on, dude. It's like you're not even trying.

Besides, every good tank has either all or at least two tank classes leveled. Again, I'm talking about the highest tier here. I don't care what you do in Rav Ex or Alex normal. I can tank all that in Deliverance so my ability to oGCD stance swap doesn't even come into play.

Seems pretty balanced to me that groups would want to take a good off-tank class and a good main tank class in their progression raids. Why is that idea so crazy?