What's the point of being elite at your job?

[Bishop81]

The worst thing about elitists is their habit of "lecturing", ruining everyone's time by nitpicking (and worse finger pointing), in direct contrast to the point of the game - i.e. Having fun together with others.

No real need to "encourage" them with rewards.

PS: Yes, I'm bitter.

[FrejyaAthenes]

The worst thing about elitists that their habit of "lecturing", ruining everyone's time by nitpicking (and worse finger point), in direct contrast to the point of the game - i.e. Having fun together with others.

No real need to "encourage" them with rewards.

PS: Yes, I'm bitter.

Funny enough I've seen more people lecture against these "elitists." Usually trying to shame them for placing a lot of value in a video game and assuming that they don't play to have fun (because obviously what's fun for one person must be fun for everyone, right?).

Using words like "special snowflake," "dick measuring" and "e-peen" to make them feel that they're somehow wrong for wanting a way to excel at something they enjoy. Saying "it's just a game" as if pointing out that it's a hobby should negate any desire to improve yourself and stand out. Do you tell people that make music or videos for youtube that what they're doing is just a hobby and that they shouldn't try? Imagine telling an independent filmaker or game designer that what they're making is "just a movie/game." Preaching about how they shouldn't make bad players feel bad or call them out on mistakes while at the same time doing nothing when one defends their lack of skill by saying some variation of "I actually have a life."

Look, I'm not hardcore, by any stretch. I have no Zetas, no Lucis(es?), I've never even beat Twintania or stepped into either Alexander. I'm just a guy that plays when he cans, but I have never seen a community so opposed to people that want to hold themselves and others to a higher standard. I'm not talking about actual elitists who won't give you the time of day if you couldn't beat FCoB pre-echo while blidfolded and doing your taxes. Those guys are assholes and there's no cure for asshole on either side. I'm talking about the "elitists" who seek self-improvement (thank you, Maslow) and recognition for their work. The guys that try to push themselves a little harder just to see how far they can go, then share what they've learned with others that have the same drive. And yet many want to treat them like monsters because they want something beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling to reward their efforts.

[SoloWingMetatron]

There's nothing wrong with taking enjoyment in improving ones self game wise and even becoming one of the best players in the game. That is not the issue.

The issue is the people who try to achieve this and then make a point of stating that they deserve special recognition or are in some way superior to everyone else. Usually via a visual cue like a piece of armour or something so that everyone else can see the elite level they are. This by very definition is a selfish thing, and in MMO's the concept of ones self is very limited by the very nature of the game. It is a team based game. The only way a player can get anywhere (even the best players) are off the backs of others. Therefore not one player in FFXIV can truly be "elite" as they did not get where they are off their own back. You could be the best player in all of FFXIV but if you aint got a static, you aint clearing anything...there is a difference between being a great player and an "elitist" player.

Usually you will find the elitists are not the best, as a truly great player does not require an exclusive piece of armour to glamour or whatever to make them feel like a skilled player.

Do you tell people that make music or videos for youtube that what they're doing is just a hobby and that they shouldn't try? Imagine telling an independent filmaker or game designer that what they're making is "just a movie/game."

This statement also does not make sense. The reason people are saying it is just a game is coz you are not achieving anything that will change or effect your life in any real or meaningful way. A person who makes music videos/films/games does that as their career or to further their career. They get paid to do it which allows them to live their life and pay the bills. Playing FFXIV even at the best ability will never allow you to achieve those things, therefore by very definition it is frivolous and just a game. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with progressing through it though. But it does still mean those "elitists" need some perspective so they can be great players without the terrible attitude.

[Bishop81]

Funny enough I've seen more people lecture against these "elitists."

The difference is the same as between a psychopath running into a school and putting a bullet, and a policeman running into school and putting a bullet in the psychopath's head before he kills more people.

i.e. False equivalency.

Usually trying to shame them for placing a lot of value in a video game and assuming that they don't play to have fun (because obviously what's fun for one person must be fun for everyone, right?).

Fun you should say that, given that what is fun for the elitist might not be fun for anyone else. Other players are not obligated to play at the elitist's standards and should not be chided for it.

[FrejyaAthenes]

There's nothing wrong with taking enjoyment in improving ones self game wise and even becoming one of the best players in the game. That is not the issue.

The issue is the people who try to achieve this and then make a point of stating that they deserve special recognition or are in some way superior to everyone else. Usually via a visual cue like a piece of armour or something so that everyone else can see the elite level they are. This by very definition is a selfish thing, and in MMO's the concept of ones self is very limited by the very nature of the game. It is a team based game. The only way a player can get anywhere (even the best players) are off the backs of others. Therefore not one player in FFXIV can truly be "elite" as they did not get where they are off their own back. You could be the best player in all of FFXIV but if you aint got a static, you aint clearing anything...there is a difference between being a great player and an "elitist" player.

Yes, I will fully admit that it's a selfish thing. By that very token, what makes it wrong? Why shouldn't someone be rewarded for doing better than someone else? Yes, it's a team game and "there's no I in team" and all that, but even within team sports in the real world there are superstars and mvps that go above and beyond that of their peers and gain recognition from it. Just like an individual can't get far on his own, a team can't get far without the individuals that make it up. You can't have one without the other.
Basically, to me a team is more than just a group of people working towards a common goal. That definition always seemed shallow in my opinion. Even if a team shares a goal, the motivations and interests of the individual members may vary, so I've always felt that a team was group of people working towards a goal that serves in the interest of the individual goals of its members. If we give up our sense of individuality for the sake of a group, we lose the very thing that makes us human.

Then again, I get the feeling this whole thing boils down to an altruism vs egotism debate.

Usually you will find the elitists are not the best, as a truly great player does not require an exclusive piece of armour to glamour or whatever to make them feel like a skilled player.

They may not need it, but what's the harm in having it if they've truly earned it? Yes, some people may lord it over other players, and some may just wear it like a personal badge of honor as a personal reminder of what he's accomplished, like mounting a fish on a wall.
Prime example: For the longest time, until maybe 2.5, I had no idea what the Final Witness title meant, but I still saw people with the title. They didn't rub it in anyone's face or draw attention to it, because deep down it wasn't for other people to look at, it was for the player. It was a reminder that they had acheived something great, whether anyone that saw it knew what it meant or not.
Remember, we spend more time looking at our character than anyone else (unless you play entirely in first person, but you get my meaning). Think of it this way, not everyone can afford the points to get the Gambler Set or the Fenrir Mount, but are the ones that can acting like they're better than the ones that couldn't when they wear/ride them?

This statement also does not make sense. The reason people are saying it is just a game is coz you are not achieving anything that will change or effect your life in any real or meaningful way. A person who makes music videos/films/games does that as their career or to further their career. They get paid to do it which allows them to live their life and pay the bills. Playing FFXIV even at the best ability will never allow you to achieve those things, therefore by very definition it is frivolous and just a game. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with progressing through it though. But it does still mean those "elitists" need some perspective so they can be great players without the terrible attitude.

Yeah, this is what I maent by "could've worded better." Originally I didn't have independent but then I realized basically what you're saying now, so I tried to use the word to differentiate between AAA-carreer film/gamemakers and the smalltime doing for the art types. I guess "hobby" would've been better to use, but damage done. Anyway the point I was trying to make is that even if you don't get a paycheck or anything with real physical value from a hobby, that shouldn't mean that you have to talk down about something that a person's passionate about, because some those feelings are the value. Even if it's not monetary the value of an object or action varies from person to person, and while elitists need to understand that not everyone places the same value on the game that they do, the same could be said of non-elitists. Basically what I'm trying to say in an overly verbose and pretentious way is, "Can't we all get along." We don't have to agree with each other, but we can at least try to understand each other instead of perpetuating this us vs them mentality.

The difference is the same as between a psychopath running into a school and putting a bullet, and a policeman running into school and putting a bullet in the psychopath's head before he kills more people.

i.e. False equivalency.

Did you really just compare someone that says a variation "git gud, scrub" to a psychopathic murderer?

i.e. Hyperbole. Granted if it was more like those guys that tracked down a kid and then broke his fingers over StarCraft (or was it League?), then I'd see your point.

Fun you should say that, given that what is fun for the elitist might not be fun for anyone else. Other players are not obligated to play at the elitist's standards and should not be chided for it.

You realize that's my point, right? That it's neither side's place to tell the other what "fun" is.

Basically, I guess I'm just bugged because, as another person posted, this topic could've lead to an actual interesting discussion, but instead degenerated into the usual casual/midcore/hardcore tripe we get over in general discussion.

[Bishop81]

You realize that's my point, right? That it's neither side's place to tell the other what "fun" is.

Basically, I guess I'm just bugged because, as another person posted, this topic could've lead to an actual interesting discussion, but instead degenerated into the usual casual/midcore/hardcore tripe we get over in general discussion.

Exactly. Elitists should mind their own business, and quit with the lecturing, and I will mind mine.

If no one asked for your advice, just be quiet.

All in all, it's the elitists who started it. We won't be having this conversation if toxic behavior in dungeons didn't happen.

[Malevicton]

Exactly. Elitists should mind their own business, and quit with the lecturing, and I will mind mine.

If no one asked for your advice, just be quiet.

All in all, it's the elitists who started it. We won't be having this conversation if toxic behavior in dungeons didn't happen.

The problem imo is that elitists are always framed as hypotheticals. Seeing a wild elitist in nature is very rare, so anytime they're brought up they're made increasingly abstract. The more abstract they become the less relevant the conversation is to anything that will ever really happen. Flash forward through 20 pages of forum replies and you basically have people saying "Being rude is bad" and nodding at each other confidently, comfortable in the knowledge that they are the harbingers of justice and morality in an otherwise cruel and unfair world.

Also, why is giving advice bad? If someone's not open to it I won't push the issue, but if I see em doing something wrong I'll give em some tips.

Your last line is something I'd be hesitant to proclaim with confidence. It's basically a chicken/egg problem that predates this game (heck, predates gaming entirely in a vague enough sense) by quite a bit. It's a fine opinion, but I wouldn't use it as something axiomatic to form an argument out of.

[Bishop81]

Your last line is something I'd be hesitant to proclaim with confidence. It's basically a chicken/egg problem that predates this game (heck, predates gaming entirely in a vague enough sense) by quite a bit. It's a fine opinion, but I wouldn't use it as something axiomatic to form an argument out of.

The "cause" is simple really. Player interdependence.

So long as the whole group is "punished" for the failings of a few, there will always be conflict.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Snip

Sorry had to snip coz the quote would have been huge lol. But I see what you are saying and I agree to some extent and of course we should all try to get along. There is nothing wrong with being given a token item for your trouble either. For example the Final Coil gear could be considered such a token. Before the echo and the release of HW it was a gear set you did not see that often and acted as that visual cue to others (there is also the Alexander Savage gear now). So these items you speak of do exist, so I don't see the issue there.

The token item itself is not the issue though, I think it is fine if they exist. My issue is the people who then use that as a means to belittle others or act in some way entitled and just generally have a bad attitude. When really they should get enough fulfillment from completing that content, getting the gear, and then helping their fellow players instead of just thinking about themselves and how "elite" they are. It's a poor attitude. But of course not all great players are like this, which is why there is a distinction between great players and elitist players.

Also what the OP and the elitists are failing to realize is of course the Final Coil gear (and other hardcore gear) is going to get easier to get. The game is still rather young and level caps and ilevels will continue to raise, so naturally hardcore content like Coil and Alexander will become easy enough for casuals to complete, that's unavoidable. But just as there is Alexander Savage now, there will always be hardcore content like this that will continue to be released with accompanying gear until the game finally reaches its max level/ilevel cap.

So in fact there is something for the great players and always will be, it's just that until the max level/ilevel cap is reached then casuals will eventually be able to run that content also as they naturally increase in level and stats. But when the casuals are running Alexander Savage, the great players will have moved onto the next thing and getting the next set of token loots. So being that one step ahead should always be good enough, anything else just seems selfish and poor attitude.