What's the point of being elite at your job?

[LucentLagombi]

Technically yeah, it's not all about split second reaction timing or mechanical execution. It's about knowledge, knowing your class, and more than anything else it's about math. Damage over time is normalized and set into a solid structure a given player operates in. I take issue with the statement that it requires no player skill at all however. So let's say for example you find a way to optimize a fight such that instead of 600 dps you are doing 615. If everyone in your static can optimize similarly you gain somewhere in the realm of 80 dps. That's not small proportionally. The player skill comes in with the ability to coordinate with your team and warp that perfect rotation into a working system that synchronizes with the rest of your raid.

[kro]

It's much harder to increase your DPS when you can't identify any obvious mistakes like screwing up your rotation or missing positionals. As you get closer and closer to optimal play, the improvements you discover that lead to dps gains become extremely situational and have diminishing returns.

If you aren't satisfied with finding the little things that allow you to parse slightly higher than a solid player that goes by the book and doesn't make any mistakes, then you should try to find something else to do. For example, there are speed runs, solo challenges, and (lol) PvP.

Personally, I'd rather play something like fighting games if I wanted to showcase individual skill. If you say your mechanical skills are good, then you should work on your decision-making as a challenge to yourself and improve on your weaknesses.

As an aside, the skill most highly valued in the PvE teamwork-oriented FFXIV is the leadership and charisma to assemble, direct, and maintain a group of seven other individuals that don't have a ridiculous ego, aren't dead weight, and don't have too many real life obligations. A guy who can do that is elite in my book.

[SoloWingMetatron]

I can understand this point of view, people want to be rewarded for time invested. Which I understand and totally get. However the other side of the coin is that people want this reward not for the time invested, but to simply be in some way different or superior to the majority and need some kind of visual cue so others can see this. However all this is, is a delusion of ones need of individuality or superiority. When the actual fact is that they will always just be one of the crowd. That goes for life in general also. There will always be someone similar to you, with the same aesthetic, beliefs, ideology, likes, dislikes. etc. True individuality/uniqueness does not exist. It is a mere delusion which panders to serve a selfish ideal.

I dunno the whole topic just seems kinda reductive. Who cares if you are on par with a mass number of other people who play the same jobs. Who cares if you have a glamour that many people also use. etc. It's all irrelevant. As long as you are having fun and content is getting cleared and you and those you party with are playing the game well enough, then it really doesn't matter.

As people have already said, it is just a game. A frivolous past time used for entertainment and enjoyment. Whether you pars this amount of DPS or that amount of DPS, or have this gear or that gear. The world will keep on bloody spinning, with people living and dying on a daily basis.....and people are actually bothered about standing out from the crowd on a bloody game?! To those people I would say gain some perspective and get over it. The completion of the "elite" content (before echo and advanced ilevels) is all the reward you should really need...

[Bishop81]

The worst thing about elitists is their habit of "lecturing", ruining everyone's time by nitpicking (and worse finger pointing), in direct contrast to the point of the game - i.e. Having fun together with others.

No real need to "encourage" them with rewards.

PS: Yes, I'm bitter.

[FrejyaAthenes]

The worst thing about elitists that their habit of "lecturing", ruining everyone's time by nitpicking (and worse finger point), in direct contrast to the point of the game - i.e. Having fun together with others.

No real need to "encourage" them with rewards.

PS: Yes, I'm bitter.

Funny enough I've seen more people lecture against these "elitists." Usually trying to shame them for placing a lot of value in a video game and assuming that they don't play to have fun (because obviously what's fun for one person must be fun for everyone, right?).

Using words like "special snowflake," "dick measuring" and "e-peen" to make them feel that they're somehow wrong for wanting a way to excel at something they enjoy. Saying "it's just a game" as if pointing out that it's a hobby should negate any desire to improve yourself and stand out. Do you tell people that make music or videos for youtube that what they're doing is just a hobby and that they shouldn't try? Imagine telling an independent filmaker or game designer that what they're making is "just a movie/game." Preaching about how they shouldn't make bad players feel bad or call them out on mistakes while at the same time doing nothing when one defends their lack of skill by saying some variation of "I actually have a life."

Look, I'm not hardcore, by any stretch. I have no Zetas, no Lucis(es?), I've never even beat Twintania or stepped into either Alexander. I'm just a guy that plays when he cans, but I have never seen a community so opposed to people that want to hold themselves and others to a higher standard. I'm not talking about actual elitists who won't give you the time of day if you couldn't beat FCoB pre-echo while blidfolded and doing your taxes. Those guys are assholes and there's no cure for asshole on either side. I'm talking about the "elitists" who seek self-improvement (thank you, Maslow) and recognition for their work. The guys that try to push themselves a little harder just to see how far they can go, then share what they've learned with others that have the same drive. And yet many want to treat them like monsters because they want something beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling to reward their efforts.

[SoloWingMetatron]

There's nothing wrong with taking enjoyment in improving ones self game wise and even becoming one of the best players in the game. That is not the issue.

The issue is the people who try to achieve this and then make a point of stating that they deserve special recognition or are in some way superior to everyone else. Usually via a visual cue like a piece of armour or something so that everyone else can see the elite level they are. This by very definition is a selfish thing, and in MMO's the concept of ones self is very limited by the very nature of the game. It is a team based game. The only way a player can get anywhere (even the best players) are off the backs of others. Therefore not one player in FFXIV can truly be "elite" as they did not get where they are off their own back. You could be the best player in all of FFXIV but if you aint got a static, you aint clearing anything...there is a difference between being a great player and an "elitist" player.

Usually you will find the elitists are not the best, as a truly great player does not require an exclusive piece of armour to glamour or whatever to make them feel like a skilled player.

Do you tell people that make music or videos for youtube that what they're doing is just a hobby and that they shouldn't try? Imagine telling an independent filmaker or game designer that what they're making is "just a movie/game."

This statement also does not make sense. The reason people are saying it is just a game is coz you are not achieving anything that will change or effect your life in any real or meaningful way. A person who makes music videos/films/games does that as their career or to further their career. They get paid to do it which allows them to live their life and pay the bills. Playing FFXIV even at the best ability will never allow you to achieve those things, therefore by very definition it is frivolous and just a game. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with progressing through it though. But it does still mean those "elitists" need some perspective so they can be great players without the terrible attitude.

[Bishop81]

Funny enough I've seen more people lecture against these "elitists."

The difference is the same as between a psychopath running into a school and putting a bullet, and a policeman running into school and putting a bullet in the psychopath's head before he kills more people.

i.e. False equivalency.

Usually trying to shame them for placing a lot of value in a video game and assuming that they don't play to have fun (because obviously what's fun for one person must be fun for everyone, right?).

Fun you should say that, given that what is fun for the elitist might not be fun for anyone else. Other players are not obligated to play at the elitist's standards and should not be chided for it.

[FrejyaAthenes]

There's nothing wrong with taking enjoyment in improving ones self game wise and even becoming one of the best players in the game. That is not the issue.

The issue is the people who try to achieve this and then make a point of stating that they deserve special recognition or are in some way superior to everyone else. Usually via a visual cue like a piece of armour or something so that everyone else can see the elite level they are. This by very definition is a selfish thing, and in MMO's the concept of ones self is very limited by the very nature of the game. It is a team based game. The only way a player can get anywhere (even the best players) are off the backs of others. Therefore not one player in FFXIV can truly be "elite" as they did not get where they are off their own back. You could be the best player in all of FFXIV but if you aint got a static, you aint clearing anything...there is a difference between being a great player and an "elitist" player.

Yes, I will fully admit that it's a selfish thing. By that very token, what makes it wrong? Why shouldn't someone be rewarded for doing better than someone else? Yes, it's a team game and "there's no I in team" and all that, but even within team sports in the real world there are superstars and mvps that go above and beyond that of their peers and gain recognition from it. Just like an individual can't get far on his own, a team can't get far without the individuals that make it up. You can't have one without the other.
Basically, to me a team is more than just a group of people working towards a common goal. That definition always seemed shallow in my opinion. Even if a team shares a goal, the motivations and interests of the individual members may vary, so I've always felt that a team was group of people working towards a goal that serves in the interest of the individual goals of its members. If we give up our sense of individuality for the sake of a group, we lose the very thing that makes us human.

Then again, I get the feeling this whole thing boils down to an altruism vs egotism debate.

Usually you will find the elitists are not the best, as a truly great player does not require an exclusive piece of armour to glamour or whatever to make them feel like a skilled player.

They may not need it, but what's the harm in having it if they've truly earned it? Yes, some people may lord it over other players, and some may just wear it like a personal badge of honor as a personal reminder of what he's accomplished, like mounting a fish on a wall.
Prime example: For the longest time, until maybe 2.5, I had no idea what the Final Witness title meant, but I still saw people with the title. They didn't rub it in anyone's face or draw attention to it, because deep down it wasn't for other people to look at, it was for the player. It was a reminder that they had acheived something great, whether anyone that saw it knew what it meant or not.
Remember, we spend more time looking at our character than anyone else (unless you play entirely in first person, but you get my meaning). Think of it this way, not everyone can afford the points to get the Gambler Set or the Fenrir Mount, but are the ones that can acting like they're better than the ones that couldn't when they wear/ride them?

This statement also does not make sense. The reason people are saying it is just a game is coz you are not achieving anything that will change or effect your life in any real or meaningful way. A person who makes music videos/films/games does that as their career or to further their career. They get paid to do it which allows them to live their life and pay the bills. Playing FFXIV even at the best ability will never allow you to achieve those things, therefore by very definition it is frivolous and just a game. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with progressing through it though. But it does still mean those "elitists" need some perspective so they can be great players without the terrible attitude.

Yeah, this is what I maent by "could've worded better." Originally I didn't have independent but then I realized basically what you're saying now, so I tried to use the word to differentiate between AAA-carreer film/gamemakers and the smalltime doing for the art types. I guess "hobby" would've been better to use, but damage done. Anyway the point I was trying to make is that even if you don't get a paycheck or anything with real physical value from a hobby, that shouldn't mean that you have to talk down about something that a person's passionate about, because some those feelings are the value. Even if it's not monetary the value of an object or action varies from person to person, and while elitists need to understand that not everyone places the same value on the game that they do, the same could be said of non-elitists. Basically what I'm trying to say in an overly verbose and pretentious way is, "Can't we all get along." We don't have to agree with each other, but we can at least try to understand each other instead of perpetuating this us vs them mentality.

The difference is the same as between a psychopath running into a school and putting a bullet, and a policeman running into school and putting a bullet in the psychopath's head before he kills more people.

i.e. False equivalency.

Did you really just compare someone that says a variation "git gud, scrub" to a psychopathic murderer?

i.e. Hyperbole. Granted if it was more like those guys that tracked down a kid and then broke his fingers over StarCraft (or was it League?), then I'd see your point.

Fun you should say that, given that what is fun for the elitist might not be fun for anyone else. Other players are not obligated to play at the elitist's standards and should not be chided for it.

You realize that's my point, right? That it's neither side's place to tell the other what "fun" is.

Basically, I guess I'm just bugged because, as another person posted, this topic could've lead to an actual interesting discussion, but instead degenerated into the usual casual/midcore/hardcore tripe we get over in general discussion.

[Bishop81]

You realize that's my point, right? That it's neither side's place to tell the other what "fun" is.

Basically, I guess I'm just bugged because, as another person posted, this topic could've lead to an actual interesting discussion, but instead degenerated into the usual casual/midcore/hardcore tripe we get over in general discussion.

Exactly. Elitists should mind their own business, and quit with the lecturing, and I will mind mine.

If no one asked for your advice, just be quiet.

All in all, it's the elitists who started it. We won't be having this conversation if toxic behavior in dungeons didn't happen.

[Malevicton]

Exactly. Elitists should mind their own business, and quit with the lecturing, and I will mind mine.

If no one asked for your advice, just be quiet.

All in all, it's the elitists who started it. We won't be having this conversation if toxic behavior in dungeons didn't happen.

The problem imo is that elitists are always framed as hypotheticals. Seeing a wild elitist in nature is very rare, so anytime they're brought up they're made increasingly abstract. The more abstract they become the less relevant the conversation is to anything that will ever really happen. Flash forward through 20 pages of forum replies and you basically have people saying "Being rude is bad" and nodding at each other confidently, comfortable in the knowledge that they are the harbingers of justice and morality in an otherwise cruel and unfair world.

Also, why is giving advice bad? If someone's not open to it I won't push the issue, but if I see em doing something wrong I'll give em some tips.

Your last line is something I'd be hesitant to proclaim with confidence. It's basically a chicken/egg problem that predates this game (heck, predates gaming entirely in a vague enough sense) by quite a bit. It's a fine opinion, but I wouldn't use it as something axiomatic to form an argument out of.