Strength Tanks and You.

[Gyson]

Problem is, most of the people who are being told to "git gud" don't want any advice because they fail to see anything outside their little bubble of "perfection" which is sitting in full VIT gear with thousands more HP than is needed and refuse to look at the benefits of alternate builds besides pure VIT. They criticize those of us that do want to push ourselves and are capable of doing so because it doesn't fit into THEIR idea of what a tank should be. They insult us and then get upset when they're proven wrong on the many points that they try and make.

You have valid points in that if you're in a PUG some caution should be used. All I'm seeing from the things that have been posted by you and others who are against STR tanks is that you've never run with a good one who actually understands the job and how to effectively play it outside of a "I'm going to stand here and get punched in the face" style.

Are we still pretending STR tanks "push themselves" by slapping on some STR gear and then using cooldowns effectively (the latter being what every tank who understands his class does)? Because the reality is anyone can swap equipment, drop gil on melds, etc. I hate to break it to you, but that in of itself is not a sign of skill.

So, if using cooldowns effectively is how we define a tank as "pushing themselves", then news flash: that's a tank thing, not a STR-tank thing, not a VIT-tank thing. Of course, to label that simple task as "pushing themselves" seems a little strange to me.. I call it doing the basics of tanking. I don't know.. maybe some of you are really new to this role or something and truly believe you've stumbled upon some little-known tanking secret. Taking your role (tanking, DPS, healing) seriously 100% of the time and not slacking is what I consider the bare minimum for these games, no matter which set of gear someone is wearing.

You're not "pushing yourself" by putting out a little more damage thanks to swapping in some strength gear. You're doing the same thing the other tanks are doing, except your gear is letting you hit a little bit harder (at the cost of a significant chunk of health loss). You can all stop patting yourselves on the back now for being on the bleeding edge of tanking, or whatever nonsense you think you're doing.

But, I forgot.. VIT tanks don't use cooldowns effectively because they're inherently lazy, not interested in doing their best, blah blah blah, am I right? That's the responses I keep seeing in this thread.

Man, I miss the MMO population from back when these types of of games were a whole lot less popular. The way you guys think makes me facepalm in real life.

[Dhex]

Are we still pretending STR tanks "push themselves" by slapping on some STR gear and then using cooldowns effectively (the latter being what every tank who understands his class does)?

Please tell me how does excess Vitality contribute to the goal of defeating the boss? If you know the tank buster timing, the required eHP, healing required, and can properly execute cooldowns then what is the function of your extraneous stat allotment?

[Krylo]

Please tell me how does excess Vitality contribute to the goal of defeating the boss? If you know the tank buster timing, the required eHP, healing required, and can properly execute cooldowns then what is the function of your extraneous stat allotment?

"Gotta have that 700 accuracy for T13"

[Dhex]

"Gotta have that 700 accuracy for T13"

Gotta be 200% accurate~!

[SuperGandhi]

Please tell me how does excess Vitality contribute to the goal of defeating the boss?

He can't, he's like an old timer who won't move on from Analog TV.

Man, I miss the MMO population from back when these types of of games were a whole lot less popular. The way you guys think makes me facepalm in real life.

"Kids these days, VIT is for Tanks you Whippersnappers! It says so on my Fending Gear! It's VIT! Not STR! Git off muh lawn!"

It's not that hard of a concept really, I as a STR Dark Knight am usually 2nd or 3rd on the DPS charts during fights. If a healer really needs me to have 3-4k more HP because they can't handle it, you know what? I can put on a VIT piece or two that's no problem. What you seem to lack is versatility.

Even a few Alexander runs ago, I tanked with a full VIT geared PLD who had a DPS of 162. Man that sure helped the team alright. Doing another round of mechanics sure helped the healers keep his HP up and their mana costs down.

[elemental10]

Please tell me how does excess Vitality contribute to the goal of defeating the boss? If you know the tank buster timing, the required eHP, healing required, and can properly execute cooldowns then what is the function of your extraneous stat allotment?

It does decrease the margin of error. If anything doesn't go well, like you missed a CD to a tank buster or for some reason the healer lagged while at that part, the extra HP would definitely be a safe backup.

Now, I'm not saying that it's better or worse. It is a right of choice for those who choose to go that way. If the stated factors that you said are all in-line with each other and executed perfectly, please by all means go STR.

A VIT build does not help to contribute to the goal of finishing a run, but it does provide a safety net for those that does not feel confident in himself or any other person. It doesn't mean that the extra VIT is bad.

VIT is not bad nor STR is all superior in all situation. Both is not the end-all for anything. The key here is to be versatile and adapt to your situations. The healer can't heal you up to the required HP? Go get some VIT to make sure you don't die. You can skip
a phase and help the team better? Go get STR to do that.

Both is good. It's just a matter of situation.

[Xensai]

STR tanking actually does require skill. It requires effort and knowing the ins and outs of your class youre a fool to think otherwise you think that DPS who are top Tier have no skill also? what about healers who are able to Heal + do significant DPS you've added nothing into this thread the whole time you've sat on your high horse thinking that your way is the correct way and everyone should bow down to you.

/edit

and for all the people complaining about healing issues i wear full STR 100% of the time and get commended on how easy it actually was to heal me

[elemental10]

snip

Sorry for double posting but this guy nails a point.

A good tank always hit his CDs at the right time. Regardless of what his build is. It is the basis of a good tank to properly manage his CDs, it is not a specialty to any kind of tanks out there. I have no comment if this some form of skill or whatever.

This guy misses his point by kind of slapping the STR build because some people argue that a STR build requires skill.

My question is, what exactly is the skills that is required in order to go for STR? Managing CDs, timing big hits... What else?

[Krylo]

My question is, what exactly is the skills that is required in order to go for STR? Managing CDs, timing big hits... What else?

Basically the same as vit but with less margin of error and a greater reliance on your own self heals (which are also boosted by str) to relieve healer stress--if this is done right, healers need to do less for a str tank than a vit tank.

Although, on the margin of error, you can choose to have very little: Enough HP to survive one mitigated tank buster + auto attack crit (on the off chance that happens), or enough HP to have pretty similar to a vit build: Enough HP to survive one unmitigated tank buster + auto attack crit.

The thing is, though, that other than, maybe, Alexander Savage when the servers come back up (and maybe Rav ex? I've not been in there, been lazy), there's nothing that requires even a single piece of vit to reach enough hp to survive unmitigated tank busters + auto attack crit. Which is to say, vit doesn't really increase your margin of error very much, unless your healer is literally asleep.

[elemental10]

snip

In that situation, the one you stated about enough HP + mitigation, and more HP + unmitigated) I would agree and if the tank pulls off the mitigation correctly, then that is considered skill and experience. That is the case of where everything would fall in place perfectly.

The assuming factor in your situation is the state of the healer. There are a lot of factors in determining how a good situation would turn very bad and most of it stem from your healer. Exaggerating, if the healer suddenly has a problem with his hardware, or a situation in which he cannot heal (such as he died), the excess VIT will decrease the chances of a wipe. The other healer can possibly keep you up at enough health to raise the dead healer or replace him for a short while. This is the situation which I had brought up.

Any tank busters in the game would not reduce the tank's HP to zero, merely to a critical point. In having a certain amount of VIT, that critical point can be avoided, therefore decreasing the margin of error. Again, this is up to the healer. If he is prepared to heal you up, that's good. If he does not? Then your extra VIT kicks in and you may survive long enough until the heal comes back again.

snip

Then, therefore by stacking VIT in excess and he knows he does not fully well know certain mechanic (I assume mechanics such as big hits, and so on) is a reasonable choice and does not perpetuate that the tank is bad. Merely, inexperienced in said content. Once he has known how to handle game mechanics and gearing choices, I assume he would want to go STR. Again, this is a choice for tanks.

However, stacking VIT in excess does not REALLY mean he doesn't fully understand the mechanics of the game. He may have chosen so because it was his preferences to have a certain HP threshold to go certain contents.

What I'm getting to is, excess VIT doesn't really mean the tank is bad. It means he has excess VIT, that's all. These judgements that excess VIT is a bad thing for tanks is, in my opinion, not true. It merely says that the tank has more HP, that's all.

In regards to comments that the excess VIT can be exchanged for something better, such as STR, I would say that is also a reasonable choice. Provided he is confident in his skills to survive any kinds of mistakes or slip ups from his teammates.

I know that I sound like I support the notion that we need more VIT or pro-Vit build but I merely want to convene that having a little bit of excess VIT (or more) does have it's own merit and cannot be shrugged off as a bad choice.