I feel like my threat as paladin, trash and boss alike, is uncomfortably low.

[Giantbane]

Our damage output was increasing too, so apart from Flash, we actually generate more enmity now (And with the multipliers, I'm pretty sure the ratio is in our favor).

The only problem I had was doing dungeons on the lowest lvl possible vs DPS who were synced at the highest...and only on multiple targets.

The enmity generated by flash is dependent on weapon damage and attack power. If you get more STR, flash will generate more enmity, just like every other enmity ability. Where flash is really lacking vs. the other two tanks in the enmity department is that flash cannot crit, and it is not buffed by FoF (it is, however, buffed by Warrior's berserk).

A RoH combo generates 2050 (Fast blade 150 + Savage Blade 600 + Rage of Halone 1300) potency worth of enmity total over 3 gcds for ~683 enmity per gcd. Shield oath decreases potency by 20% before doubling enmity generated for an enmity multiplier of 1.6 for 1093 total enmity per gcd. The 1093 enmity per gcd generated by the combo has not changed since level 40 when we got Shield Oath.

Every DpS on the other hand has received various abilities that have increased their average potency per gcd. The amount of enmity they are generating has increased compared to a Paladin spamming RoH. This is not even factoring in the fact that the Royal Authority and Goring Blade combos generate less enmity than the RoH combo while increasing damage.

True, but I don't think any of the DPS are anywhere near doing 1093 potency per GCD yet.

[Ketsuyame]

/slap ... /slap /slap

Do the normal rage combo while tab targetting between each mob,

Rage of Halone: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: GENERATES EMNITY..

This isn't a means to just spam said combo but just to maintain as much aggro as possible. Because if there are 3 mobs and he's tabbing through each mob using a full RoH combo (GCD is 2.5 secs per skill=7.5 secs per mob) to get the full potency, some dps has ripped a mob from him and alas, he is back to square 1; not holding hate. Like I said, he needs to generate as much hate as possible as soon as possible. RoH each mob on pull THEN proceeding to tab the RoH full combo to each mob.

Slap me all you want but from the adds in T1, Speed run Hullbreaker pulls, T13 MT, Adds in Alex 2 and Neverreap with DRG's who burst in the 1400 range, I've never had any aggro issues. My tanking is damn good. Feel free to check my lodestone. Slap away.

[Seaku]

Rage of Halone: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: GENERATES EMNITY..

This isn't a means to just spam said combo but just to maintain as much aggro as possible. Because if there are 3 mobs and he's tabbing through each mob using a full RoH combo (GCD is 2.5 secs per skill=7.5 secs per mob) to get the full potency, some dps has ripped a mob from him and alas, he is back to square 1; not holding hate.

And?

Your suggestion does 2000 enmity potency in 2 globals, 200 more than Fast > Savage, which is negligible. Then 3000 enmity potency compared to enmity 4400 potency in 3 globals. So even doing one on each add you are automatically behind 1400 potency. Nah, sorry, that's just worse.

Seriously if you want to spend globals hitting things one by one use Shield Swipe, considering you can guarentee a block running in with sheltron. You're bound to get another block between your combo. It's still just better to do a full combo instead of spamming halone.

Edit: Heck, sorry forgot about flash's new buffed enmity. Flash does 1000 enmity to EVERY add. So do Halone 3 times, you have done the same aggro as flash in 1 GCD, sorry no, even worse.

[Isius]

Trash pulls just spam flash till you are comfortable that the dps can't pull from you, then go into dps combos. If you feel you need more aggro pop Fight or Flight after you gather all the trash mobs you want to gather. For single targets, shield lob, then go into a few Rage of Halone combos, then whenever you feel fine start using your dps combos. If you need more aggro use Fight or Flight after you shield lob, and after you are starting your Rage of Halone combo, then dps combos when comfortable.

Other things to help with aggro be sure to have a weapon on par with your character lvl, and start wearing a few str accessories till you find a happy medium you like tanking in, and also avoid shield swipe unless you really need to save on tp.

*You are also on my server. So I can show you some pld tips if you want me too, or if you have any questions.

[jamesrandal]

Here is my secret top tip, DPS hate me.

Spin the mobs, spin them all, spin everything all the time so no one can hit positional requirements, watch your aggro lead soar!

/s

Heh, you dont know at teh hate ive seen for that around the internet. is funny.

[Faytte]

Basically the math on your threat builders are under other tanks.

Flash is not enhanced by Fight of Flight for AoE, leaving you with Circle of Scorn. Overpower is effected by maim and zerk, unleach/abyssal drain are both enhanced by Dark Side.


The core values are also bad on our threat combo. Every 3 GCDs your doing 200+260 worth of emnity. Warriors are 200+280 but that is effected by a constant 20% maim. Dark knights are 220+300 are similarly always enjoying 15%.

Both DRK and Wars can hold threat off dps right now without even being in their tank stances, comfortably infact because their raw threat generation is so good (raw amplifiers in the wars case, heavy OGCDS in the DRK's case). This does not work with Paladins--if you are with top tier dps, they will overtake your aggro very quickly if you try to hold in sword oath. Going into Shield Oath works but you become a slave to rage of halone. Why?

Dps just scale REALLY well as of this expac, and frankly Paladin aggro was built around rage of halone being an ability we 'spammed'. Warriors always had 3 combos, drk were built from the ground up with three, but Paladins received two...with no meaningful threat changes (shield swipe really is not generating enough to do anything, it consumes a gcd so at best it can supplment threat during a non rage combo).

The threat multipliers on rage, flash, and circle need a tweak. Sword Oaths extra damage needs to be investigated and somehow interact with enmity increasing powers. Not certain what that solution is--maybe lowering the added potency to 30 or 40 but having it also apply to abilities in addition to auto attacks? Maybe unneeded.

But yeah against -good- dps (people parsing 1K+ in real dungeons, not just target dummies) a paladin does not scale at the same rate.

Savage going form 4x from 3x emnity and rage going to 6x from 5x on enmity would be a start.
Flash needs a fix---even after it was raised, its still inferior to overpower (which you know..damages). I would like to see the 1.1x(500 p?) going up to 1.2 or 1.3x (it should atleast be as good as overpower for its raw threat--although I frankly think it should be better. No actual damage--paladins have nothing else to rely on save for CoS).

CoS needs an enmity look--since there has always been some evidence showing the DOT (the majority of the damage) does not enjoy the extra enmity.

Yeah, Paladin threat is in a bad place atm. It's nice to bring a Ninja if you are grouped with competitive DPS, otherwise its going to be a rough ride for you.

[Faytte]

Edit: Heck, sorry forgot about flash's new buffed enmity. Flash does 1000 enmity to EVERY add. So do Halone 3 times, you have done the same aggro as flash in 1 GCD, sorry no, even worse.

The emnity of flash with shield oath up is 960 (same as hitting everything with a savage blade). Thats really not insane, given the potency of attacks that are effecting groups in aoe at the moment--DPS damage has grown ALOT in this xpac. A warriors base potency on overpower is 900, before 20% extra from maim putting them to 1080, which is then multiplied by their critical hit damage (or better, by Unchained).


Sadly, while Shield Oath multiplied flashes aggro, it also penalizes it by -20% (since this is applied it seems, to attack power, not to damage). Meanwhile, Flash only scales off attack power so things like FoF do not enhance it (where a warrior using berserk actually will be flashing stronger).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ydQ/edit#gid=0 (a good reference, updated after the old 2.4 changes. It wont have the tweaks in 3.0 for shield swipe, but that is basically hitting like savage blade atm--no biggie?).

The call outs are of course, the numbers in the warrior column can safely be increased by 1.2X cause of maim, and even if you ignore that, are ahead of the paladins numbers. 2310 vs 2080 for an aggro combo, the ability to unchain and boost their numbers well above that and give them super comfortable leads. Darks have better potencies and 15% going on at all times, in addition to being able to throw out signficant OGCD.

Theres a reason you can see either tank do all of Ravannah ex without grit/in deliverance no problem, but I've yet to see a paladin tank it all in sword oath with dps parsing over 1000.

[elemental10]

I had problem in Sohm Al with one of those OP DRG with full i180 before. It's pretty much the same as running Qarn NM for the first time.

If the DPS hits for a lot more damage than you, that's a good sign that the mob will pretty much die when he DOES get agro off of you. At around 20% of mob's health, I switch to another target and start RoH that one.

A comfortable agro range for me is when the DPS agro meter is around 50% full in mid to end of battle. That means the DPS is doing a good job, and I can loose around a bit with a Goring Blade here and there. The trick is to find your "comfortable" agro range. For a PLD, when I see that the DPS agro meter isn't up to 50%, I will assume the DPS is doing a bad job or is doing his AOE stuff.

These days, my pulls are pretty much the same as any of the ones stated before me. Shield lob, flash, CoS, RoH combo on highest DPS' target, Shield Swipe when available. Goring Blade is something extra I put to the highest health mob, so I know it will hit for full potency and it's for the damage, not for the agro.

I find that if you spam flash 3 times at the start of the pull, you will secure your agro for the mobs other than your DPS' targets. That will secure you a good agro lead when the DPS switch target. In my experience, DPS tends to burst the first mob down with buffs and then it will expire on the second mob. At this time, you don't have to worry about agro much and can pull of your DPS combo more. Only the first mob is to be worried about.

Like Qarn NM, I've been getting a lot of those these days, DPS will ALWAYS tear agro off of me at the very last second of the mob's life and I think that's a good sign of the DPS doing a good job. Just secure that first kill, and if you flash correctly, the second and so on mobs would be fine.

[Galgarion]

Here is my secret top tip, DPS hate me.

Spin the mobs, spin them all, spin everything all the time so no one can hit positional requirements, watch your aggro lead soar!

/s

GENIUS! It's exactly what I'll do when it's time to level cap Paladin.

[Twilite]

Overgear applies to healers too. 3k cure crits is gonna rock those enmity bars.