Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

[Sen_Terrechant]

snip

Dont bother, these people wont listen to any amount of reason. They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

Just accept that this is the lower tier of player, who wont see much content, and because of that want the game to be balanced around their level- despite that having dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

[LambLich]

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from??? Do you know how weapon damage works to be asking for that 10%?

Its quite basic maths

Hive Kris WD:72 / Hive Musketoon WD:65 Difference = 7WD
7/72*100=9.72% difference

As to weather this should be increased and by how much who knows.

[Tsilyi]

Is the crux of one of the arguments "bards should do better damage because they might be one of two dps in a 4 man?" i've done multiple 2 bard runs of the expert roulette with absolutely zero problems and without it taking a hundred million years so... that argument is out. some of the other stuff might be worth looking at, sure.

e: these runs were pre wm buff also...

[Ryaz]

For me it isn't so much about dps, it's about our utility abilities being unneeded outside of hardcore raids, while also being the reason we have lower dps. I would just like the support part of our class to be useful in more areas.

[Aiselia]

Healer's dps is very important during raid and is a nice bonus during other easy content.

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations. Going from what was said in the quote, healers are, at best, a last resort if your DPS isn't high enough.

In other words, if healer DPS is very important, your DPS isn't doing good enough.

Some people on this thread already posted video proof of bard's/machinist's dps being high.

And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from???

From the game and elementary school math. Bard weapons have an inherent 10% less weapon damage, rounded (apparently 5- is down, 6+ is up).

Example: Ninja Zodiac weapon has 56 weapon damage. 10% of 56 is 5.6. Round that up to 6. Bard Zodiac has 50 weapon damage, 6 less than Ninja.

NIN Zeta = 58. 10% is 5.8, rounded to 6. BRD Zeta = 52, 6 less.

Fast forward.

NIN Law = 67. 10% is 6.7, round to 7. BRD Law = 60.

NIN Hive = 72. 10% is 7.2, rounded down to 7. BRD Hive = 65.

The longer the game goes, the more of a gap there is. When NIN has weapons 76-85, BRD will then be 8 points behind. When NIN has 86-95, BRD will be 9 points behind. The higher the weapon damage goes, the less relative damage a Bard can do.

Did you not know of this fact? It's pretty basic Bard knowledge. That means that about 10% of the boost of WM is spent just catching up to melee's weapon damage. That leaves 20%, so basically a Ninja's poison. Except it also adds cast times and Bards have lower potency average and no self-damage buffs like DE.

Anyways, tank weapons are equal in weapon damage to melee DPS. They get a hit of 25% while tanking. So what would be so game-breaking about taking that 10% from Bard weapons and moving it to a 25% penalty when supporting, just like how tanks have equal weapon damage normally but 25% less when supporting?

They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

So... the same thing for both sides, then?

I'm actually perfectly willing to accept I'm wrong... if I'm proven wrong. However...

dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

Such as?

Nobody's given me an answer as to what the "dire ramifications" would be if the 10% weapon damage nerf was moved to the song penalty.

Apparently they're super dire and super game destroying, yet nobody can actually say what it would be.

Are you able to? This is your chance to make me admit I'm wrong about how game-destroying it would be.

[Rover1983]

I will tell you this - If you choose Summoner, prepare to not "feel" like you're doing good damage. It's a sustained damage type class so with your 3 dots + pet + nuke, basically all 5 of those are dots in their own way. Our nukes hit like a wet noodle, the pet hits like a wet noodle and the 3 dots all hit like wet noodles on their own, stack all 5 and you have a decent hit of damage just nothing "omg that was insane" type moments. If you tack on the GTAoE Dot as well which its name is slipping my mind right now since I just got into my car with a note threatening to tow my car because someone was being an asshole, that's another dot. So together you should have roughly 6 "DoT's running at a given time.

In other words, if you can manage seeing small numbers ticking that all add up to a decent chunk of damage, then try it. I know I have switched from my Summoner to Black Mage because my Black Mage can shell out 5k + total damage in a matter of seconds where my Summoner takes some time, plus I like seeing larger numbers even though Im a huge fan of pet classes(which this iteration for a pet class is pisspoor)

[Rover1983]

Is the crux of one of the arguments "bards should do better damage because they might be one of two dps in a 4 man?" i've done multiple 2 bard runs of the expert roulette with absolutely zero problems and without it taking a hundred million years so... that argument is out. some of the other stuff might be worth looking at, sure.

e: these runs were pre wm buff also...

I think most people who play archers associate it with being a high dps class since in most mmo's they are. In this though, they do do dps but since they're in the support realm, they deal a little less, at least to my knowledge but again, I think most people associate archers with high dps classes and when they come here theyre baffled.

[Leonus]

stuff.

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

[RiceisNice]

To be honest, this was how bard was in 2.0. Their damage could be summed as cherry tapping with the amount of outgoing weaponskills and oGCDs that were present. Wm turns it more of a blm output since there's no auto attack, but retaining abilities and Passover from 2.0 that doesn't work well with wm. that's a completely different discussion though and you can read up on it in the other brd thread.

[Aiselia]

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.