Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

[Aiselia]

Healer's dps is very important during raid and is a nice bonus during other easy content.

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations. Going from what was said in the quote, healers are, at best, a last resort if your DPS isn't high enough.

In other words, if healer DPS is very important, your DPS isn't doing good enough.

Some people on this thread already posted video proof of bard's/machinist's dps being high.

And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

Where did you get this 10% lower weapon damage info from???

From the game and elementary school math. Bard weapons have an inherent 10% less weapon damage, rounded (apparently 5- is down, 6+ is up).

Example: Ninja Zodiac weapon has 56 weapon damage. 10% of 56 is 5.6. Round that up to 6. Bard Zodiac has 50 weapon damage, 6 less than Ninja.

NIN Zeta = 58. 10% is 5.8, rounded to 6. BRD Zeta = 52, 6 less.

Fast forward.

NIN Law = 67. 10% is 6.7, round to 7. BRD Law = 60.

NIN Hive = 72. 10% is 7.2, rounded down to 7. BRD Hive = 65.

The longer the game goes, the more of a gap there is. When NIN has weapons 76-85, BRD will then be 8 points behind. When NIN has 86-95, BRD will be 9 points behind. The higher the weapon damage goes, the less relative damage a Bard can do.

Did you not know of this fact? It's pretty basic Bard knowledge. That means that about 10% of the boost of WM is spent just catching up to melee's weapon damage. That leaves 20%, so basically a Ninja's poison. Except it also adds cast times and Bards have lower potency average and no self-damage buffs like DE.

Anyways, tank weapons are equal in weapon damage to melee DPS. They get a hit of 25% while tanking. So what would be so game-breaking about taking that 10% from Bard weapons and moving it to a 25% penalty when supporting, just like how tanks have equal weapon damage normally but 25% less when supporting?

They are pretty much 100% set on their opinion, as wrong as it may be, and they will not care what you say.

So... the same thing for both sides, then?

I'm actually perfectly willing to accept I'm wrong... if I'm proven wrong. However...

dire ramifications for the entire game balance.

Such as?

Nobody's given me an answer as to what the "dire ramifications" would be if the 10% weapon damage nerf was moved to the song penalty.

Apparently they're super dire and super game destroying, yet nobody can actually say what it would be.

Are you able to? This is your chance to make me admit I'm wrong about how game-destroying it would be.

[Leonus]

stuff.

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

[Aiselia]

I do not believe the peircing/slashing/blunt debuff is a flat 10% damage increase. Or atleast, I remember people pointing it out in the old ninja guide.

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[Leonus]

If you're referring to my example math with the "1000 DPS each" thing, that was all just examples using round numbers for simplicity's sake, not necessarily accuracy.

However, you quoted a post where I only mentioned the slash debuff as an additional DPS increase that Ninjas can do for themselves and didn't give a value to, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Nah, just pointing that out. I just don't want anyone thinking it's a flat 10%.

Other than that, I enjoy reading you and other people's debates, even though you and I are on opposite sides of it.

[Minorinz]

Actually, if you read the quote you posted, healer DPS isn't taken into the calculations...

Did you even read the part where I said it was optional dps for dungeons? Skipping context for your own convenience is quite over the top, I must say this is sad. The best part is I have to repeat it over until it sticks, sigh.

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did, Yoshi talks about how healers boost the dps output when people are challenging new content. In the case of raid content, healer's dps is absolutely a huge boost not because the party is not preforming well but because the whole party is actually under geared which was the case for T13. I'm not surprised that you are clueless about this, nothing new.

You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?! I guess that means SE needs some serious help with their staff to be missing such a chunk of WD without any notice?!?! Shame on them. Except it's not. Although I'm curious to why they are scaling weapon damage differently for bard and ninja. I think at this point adding boost weapon damage will change things about bard because weapon damage doesn't work as a straight 10% damage buff as WM. Not surprised that you thought it was really.


The best quote ever!

And I play a Bard and know how high it can be.

I didn't say it was super low. I said it shouldn't be balanced around a minority of the game.

Thank god mission accomplished. In this case I want a summoner buff please. Also a monk buff. While you are at it please buff machinists. I've seen badly played jobs so can we please buff them and balance them all because they are the majority of the playerbase?

That logic though. Still not surprised, although it is funny. Thank you!

[Aiselia]

If you read the article I linked which I doubt you did

I did read it. He clearly states repeatedly that they don't take into account healer damage when designing the things.

As such, "Healer damage" is not important if you're doing it the right way, which includes gear.

I never said healers don't do damage ever. I said that healers have to heal, so I don't consider Foe's as "always useful" for them because they're not going to be always attacking, and certainly not for the minute-straight that Foe's can be up, unless the Tank is significantly over-geared for the dungeon or incredible at damage mitigation.

Or if it's a SCH in a low level dungeon, but you wouldn't have Foe's there anyways.

After all, that was about the use of Bard songs in non-Raids compared to other class' utilities. Remember?

You are saying it's elementary school math?!?!?!

Well yes. Around here, at least, we learned that if something is at 100 and another thing is at 90, then that second thing is 10% lower than the thing at 100.

You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

Not surprised that you thought it was really.

This loses a lot of sting when it's coming from someone who apparently didn't even know about the weapon damage difference.

Anyways, this is my last post here because of several reasons, not the least of which is the straying from the actual topic.

But also because you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about before going on irrelevant tangents about raids, so... no point.

The right way? I don't know what game you're playing, but the ffxiv I play; the off-tank and 2nd healer (SCH) have huge dps uptime.

I don't know what forum you're reading, but the post I made, I didn't say anything about having DPS uptime.

I said healer DPS wasn't taken into consideration when designing encounters, and therefore is, if everything else is "correct", bonus, not needed, which was proven correct by the interview that somebody thought was proving me wrong.

I believe the concept that the lower weapon damage of BRD/MCH doesn't actually mean they do largely lower DPS in real fights is lost on you, before talking about Foe's/Hypercharge.

I didn't say they do.

You'd think at some point, people might notice that I'm not saying they're largely lower. At least not at this point. I think the concept of "reading what someone's saying" is lost on a lot of the anti-bards.

However, we are still at the beginning of this expansion, of course. Time will pass, the gap will grow as stronger weapons get introduced.

[Kona_Nightwind]

snip.

The right way? I don't know what game you're playing, but the ffxiv I play; the off-tank and 2nd healer (SCH) have huge dps uptime.

[Sleigh]

You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

I believe the concept that the lower weapon damage of BRD/MCH doesn't actually mean they do largely lower DPS in real fights is lost on you, before talking about Foe's/Hypercharge.

[Minorinz]

I did read it. He clearly states repeatedly that they don't take into account healer damage when designing the things.
As such, "Healer damage" is not important if you're doing it the right way, which includes gear.
I never said healers don't do damage ever. I said that healers have to heal, so I don't consider Foe's as "always useful" for them because they're not going to be always attacking, and certainly not for the minute-straight that Foe's can be up, unless the Tank is significantly over-geared for the dungeon or incredible at damage mitigation.

That's normal for you to say because you don't raid and it seems you also turn a blind eye to good healers in dungeon who even ask for foes. Btw, yoshi does say that healer's dps is needed when they are pushing on content while being under geared or barely on the mark. Lucrezia did it so that's proof right there.

Or if it's a SCH in a low level dungeon, but you wouldn't have Foe's there anyways.
After all, that was about the use of Bard songs in non-Raids compared to other class' utilities. Remember?

Foes is considered a bard utilty and you will always have a healer in 4-man dungeons. Whether you like it or not that foe will always be optional just like any other job on utility, it's up to the player on how they wanna maximize.

Well yes. Around here, at least, we learned that if something is at 100 and another thing is at 90, then that second thing is 10% lower than the thing at 100.
You seemed to be lost on the concept that BRD/MCH weapons have lower weapon damage than every other physical class.

I was being sarcastic hence the "?!?!!?" spam. jeez. This is no fun. I am fully aware on how WD works but you aren't, hence why you think that if SE buffs their weapon damage it'll fix whatever you think it will.

This loses a lot of sting when it's coming from someone who apparently didn't even know about the weapon damage difference.
Anyways, this is my last post here because of several reasons, not the least of which is the straying from the actual topic.

From someone who think they are being stung, this is hilarious. Again, I know how it works and I never bothered to track every weapon and compare. SE has their own damage measurement tools and they know how to equate them.

But also because you're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about before going on irrelevant tangents about raids, so... no point.

You've been nitpicking lines and twisting them out of context whenever you please, so I have no comment on that statement of yours. As for low level content, SE isn't stupid to "balance" bad players to reach up to other well played jobs. That argument is very silly. Bard does lower damage than other jobs but it's not significant that it would make the job a burden.

Unfortunately these posts have only served to further confuse and dishearten me. In the end I just went Smn, not because of this topic but because I'm just more use to it and after having gotten it to level 60 and seeing Deathflare firsthand has me giggle like a school girl each time I use it. While I appreciate the discussion in the topic thus far, I'm afraid that it only ended up having me never wanting to try a support class again with all the back and forth going on, just easier to go with a dps class with less support options in favor of not having to repeat this same debate among friends and fellow team members.

I'm so sorry to hear that, support jobs are tough to play when being as to how they should be. I remember back in 2.0 when nobody wanted a summoner for FCoB and bard was guaranteed a spot. Let me say this though.
Finding a really good summoner that knows how to play the job 100% is not like finding a bard that knows when sing, minimize mobility and maximize damage output when at 90% of being perfect. Same about machinist. In the end, it's up to you. Enjoy playing summoner!!