Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Adire]

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Don't really see how its elitist or unreasonable to want people to read up as much as they can prior to going into a duty rather than after going into it, but okay.

And again, I don't think anyone is saying guides are a replacement for experience. A hands-on learner has NO advantages from a player explanation right before a fight over watching a video/reading a guide before a fight. They will learn from experience the best either way, so again, it's pointless to try and get an explanation right before a fight vs researching it ahead of time.

Expecting people to type out a quick summary (which might I remind you, is likely not going to prepare you adequately), or even worse, a long drawn out explanation of a fight right before it happens is pretty entitled and pointless though...why not get that done before doing a duty? Why make people waste their time for no reason?

Not to mention, trying to read a player explanation and get a good idea of mechanics is like cramming for a test an hour before it happens. It's just not going to beat having plenty of time to study (AKA the time you have to watch videos/read guides before you do a duty) in allowing you to be prepared.

[Dracosavarian]

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I've explained over 5 different Ravana fights one after another to complete and utter newbies. No videos beforehand.

All of them cleared without a single wipe. Because I took the time to explain it to the group in a way that was easy to understand and was concise.

Communication, and how you explain it, is key. It can sink in. You just have to know how to word the message.

[Adire]

I've explained over 5 different Ravana fights one after another to complete and utter newbies. No videos beforehand.

All of them cleared without a single wipe. Because I took the time to explain it to the group in a way that was easy to understand and was concise.

Communication, and how you explain it, is key. It can sink in. You just have to know how to word the message.

That's great. But why couldn't they watch videos or read a guide beforehand?

MrHappy's videos are easy to understand and detailed. MTQCapture's videos are easy to understand and are concise. They can be watched, or text guides can be read prior to going into the duty, and doing so is more considerate of your fellow human beings.

Then you could have cleared them without wipes and without having to hold up 8 people to type out explanations.

I'm definitely a hands-on learner myself, yet I still make sure I am well aware of mechanics prior to going in. I may still mess up in practice due to lack of experience, but I understand the mechanics and how they work in my mind.

I do not feel it's considerate of the other 3/7/23 people for me to expect them to hold themselves up and explain to me what I could have gotten from a video or text guide prior to entering.

[Dracosavarian]

That's great. But why couldn't they watch videos or read a guide beforehand?

MrHappy's videos are easy to understand and detailed. MTQCapture's videos are easy to understand and are concise. They can be watched, or text guides can be read prior to going into the duty, and doing so is more considerate of your fellow human beings.

Then you could have cleared them without wipes and without having to hold up 8 people to type out explanations.

I'm definitely a hands-on learner myself, yet I still make sure I am well aware of mechanics prior to going in. I may still mess up in practice due to lack of experience, but I understand the mechanics and how they work in my mind.

I do not feel it's considerate of the other 3/7/23 people to hold themselves up and explain to me what I could have gotten from a video or text guide prior to entering.

The question should moreso be...why do you yourself have an issue with someone asking for a brief rundown of the mechanics and for that to be briefly explained when you are using Duty Finder, knowing full well you may run into this? Or the rest of the group for that matter. Know how many new players I've run into low level dungeons of late? A lot. I still help them. Even when they screw up.

But...I'll humor you.

The answer is, they shouldn't have to. A dungeon, or even a raid, should not be the equivalent of a teacher slamming down a stack of books and saying to someone, test is in 5 minutes. Read all of this. The first groups that delved into that dungeon for the very first time did not have benefit of videos. They had to learn on their own. No one expects them to delve into matters like others in this community apparently do 5 minutes after Mr Happy puts a video up.

It's 2 weeks out now from when heavensward was launched. 2 Weeks. It should not be unexpected that you are going to run into people who are new. Getting up in arms about this is the height of hilarity to me. It just is. Moreover, I view it as people basically feeling they are more important than others. Basically, to me, it's the height of arrogance and pride. You view yourself as more important than the other person. Your time, in a game of all things, as more valuable than helping them learn.

Others who are genuine when they ask for help, or when they say Hey I've watched a vid but I don't remember everything. Can you summarize it again? But no, they are shunned and met with silence, and then rage and a kick when they screw up because no one spoke up, despite how hard they may have tried.

I watch MTQ's videos to summarize things. I find her videos far more concise than Mr Happy's who tends to drone on forever and forever and drives me insane with nigh on infinite levels of rage because I feel the dude just doesn't get to the point. But that's my personal opinion in regards to his work. Even then, even with my research, I still don't remember everything going in my first time. I still ask the members in my party for a brief synopsis at the boss after I say "Here's what I remember"

And you know what? They take the time to tell me. Because the group relies on me to keep the mob from chewing their face off. Kind of important. Aside from that though, I'd like to think that those who do speak up are just being kind and helpful.

Long story short, if you are in DF, no one should expect anything. Period. But people are. Seeing a Party Finder Listing saying "Know the fight!" is one thing. When you sign up for that party and you don't know anything, or ask questions there saying you are new...you get what you deserve.

But Duty Finder is another beast altogether. Like or not, the entire group of you, all random, is basically dumped on an island and stranded for lack of better terms. Survival depends on teamwork.

Just like Real Life, everyone is not going to know everything. How do you survive? By working together and helping others. If you were stranded on said island and didn't know how to make a fire via primitive methods to warm yourself, and I did...I would not hoard that knowledge. I'd help you. Because ultimately my survival depends on you surviving as well.

A rough analogy, but the basic point is the same. You are all thrown together. Like it or not, that is the result. Yes, you can do a kick. But doing so when someone is genuinely trying to learn only makes the group who did the kicking the jerks in the end. They are the bad guys. Not the newbie.

[Adire]

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I have an issue with it because the information already exists. It's this simple, don't really know how to make it any simpler:

When you're about to go into a duty for the first time, you have three choices.

A.) Go in completely blind with no interest in knowing mechanics beforehand, do not seek explanation. This is a playstyle some enjoy, and that's fine with me.

B.) Have an interest in knowing what to do, study up on it until you're comfortable.

C.) Have an interest in knowing what to do, but go in blind and ask/expect explanations.

B and C have the same result. You are instructed on what to do. The difference is, someone who chooses to do B shows better consideration for other players. Someone who chooses C forces the group to either stop and explain, or not explain and risk the new player becoming a liability. This is ultimately pointless, because said player wants to know what to do, has the information available, but chooses not to use it and forces players to stop and give it to them anyways.

Not remembering everything is fine. Sometimes even after watching a video a billion times, I don't remember something. Players who have 0% understanding and expect to be instructed all the way to 100% understanding are being extremely selfish however.

Watching and still not understanding some things is fine, though usually videos even without experience can give you enough knowledge to not be completely lost. Asking for a few tips on fight mechanics is fine. Asking for a full explanation of fight mechanics or asking for a summary of them that could have been easily seen online before going in and having no knowledge of what to do at all prior is not fine.

And trust me, I expect chaos in DF. However, that doesn't mean I can't advocate that players not force other players to wait on them for this when it could easily be avoided and in the end is pointless, because the same information players have to type is already available online. People really like to say veterans are inconsiderate of newbies, but newbies are quite capable of being inconsiderate as well. Going in blind without wanting to be blind to the fight is very inconsiderate.

And I don't think the island comparison or comparison to content that's been out for 10 minutes is very good. When you go into a duty, you know there are mechanics and know they will affect you and your team. You don't know if you'll be stranded on an island, so cannot know to prepare. You can know to prepare for Alexander when you're about to go into Alexander.

Players playing in content that's been out for 10 minutes have no guides, so obviously cannot read guides. Guides are out now and the content in them is common knowledge. If you aren't wanting to go in blind and want explanation, there is no reason to force players to explain what a guide explains.

Edit: I'd also like to mention, I DO explain things if I have to. I appreciate players who study up and do not need much explanation far more than those who choose to give me a choice between holding everyone up or dealing with a liability though.

And as long as players who go in and don't seek or listen to explanations for their first time don't become a huge problem, I am fine with that playstyle. It is a playstyle. A player who wants player explanation is playing the same way a player who studies up is playing however, but is being unnecessarily inconvenient.

[Dracosavarian]

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So the basic gist you are saying is...you don't have the patience to literally type out a few sentences on a keyboard...we'll use Crystal Tower Part 1, Final boss for example...and do this?

Ok, final boss. Basic Rundown: Dodge all aoes, claws will appear and snag players. Kill claws. When he starts Casting Flare, run to the platform I mark and stay put. Mob will appear while the shield is up. Kill it. That's it in a nutshell.

Or Ravana for example...

Basic Rundown: He changes stance. Stance change will screw with your targeting so be aware. Do not stand where the MT is ever. Always keep your back to a fence at all times or risk being knocked off like Titan. When he summons butterflies, all players save MT must each kill their own individual butterfly. Moon take priority. Burn them down asap. Healers, at one point he will mark his targets, 1, 2, 3, 4 with swords. Be aware that this is the order of attack he will hammer people. OT, be aware that at one point, no matter how much hate I have, he will turn and absolutely pound the living daylights out of you. Be ready for it and use your ult if you have to. Healers, be aware of that. Aside from that, dodge aoes. Any questions?

Both take me less than a minute to type out.

Seriously? Typing out that much is a hindrance? Really? You are honestly finding doing so little, to be such a huge problem? Doing so little is a waste of your time? Or others? Has the world grown so meek that literally moving your fingers over the span of a keyboard is a source of frustration now? I'm at a loss for words...

If the player is repeatedly wiping the raid, even after you have tried again and again to explain, fine, I can see your point. But realize, watching a video probably wouldn't help that player out that much to begin with.

I'm sorry...but...if you feel one minute of that or even 5, is forcing players to wait...I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't take a lot to help a person understand the fight. It truly doesn't. I do it all the time.

As I said, if you have issues with that, I view it as arrogance. Your time is more precious than their own type of scenario. In a game of all things. A game. Seriously...

No matter how much you boil it down, it always culminates back to the person who holds that view in the end. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. A sense of "How dare they waste my time"

If you expect chaos in DF, you should expect new players who ask help. I don't know what else to say beyond that. To act untowards that person when you knowingly launch into DF expecting bad things...well...*shakes head*

In the end, I would always, ALWAYS take a new player who genuinely wants to learn vs someone who watched a video, says nothing, and repeatedly wipes the raid anyways.

I appreciate that you are being kind in your words and taking the time to explain your position, but I do not agree with it. Nor will I ever. Because in the end, the result is the same. You don't want to help. You are tired of dealing with it, or whatever reason...and don't want to take the time that basically amounts to 1 minute or 5 minutes at most, when it could prevent a great deal of frustration and rage to begin with.

Why? Why cause a self inflicted wound? Such things make little sense to me. *Shrugs* But then again, I always try to help people. Because in the end I'd like to always think someone would return that kindness to me.


But...I've said my peace and the consensus of my thoughts remain the same. I wish everyone well, and for them to take care and Good Luck in all that they do.

Take care all and be well.

[Adire]

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Please read the edit note I put at the bottom of my post while you were responding, that should get rid of some of your criticism of me personally.

Like I said, I do choose to explain over kicking or risking a player being a liability. In fact, I do actually enjoy helping new players. I enjoy seeing a newbie clear something with minimal trouble. However, I do appreciate when a newbie takes the initiative and ensures they are minimally problematic for their party at worst and extremely helpful at best, as it shows they are striving to be exceptionally beneficial to the party. And even if I have to explain, I don't berate the person. They'd probably never even know that I felt they should have done some research on their own.

It's also not about how long it takes it to type out. It's the principal of it. In addition to it taking time for the party to stop and explain to the player, the player also has less time to study and get mechanics down in their brain. People aren't going to stand around long and wait for a newbie to get all of the mechanics understood well from an explanation.

All I want is for newbies to reasonably prepare for a duty prior to going in, rather than trying to do it after going in. I don't think that's me being arrogant, especially since I do the same thing myself.

I mean, what if we were in the same group for example? You were a veteran to whatever we were in, I was a newbie. You wouldn't appreciate that I took my own time to do my own research and prepare rather than get you to type it out for me and cost some of everyone else's time and possibly risk myself having to cram and not understand well?

I'd like to think you would view that as consideration of you and the others and appreciate it, because that's exactly why I do it. Many players do not do that and are less considerate.

[Eidolon]

Snips.

A few things I would like to point out to you:


First thing first, your explanation was outright atrocious, and gives only the basest understanding to the mechanics. It does not include how to handle the mechanic, it does not include how specific roles handle mechanics (Tank soaking, heals standing far-south to make sure the butterflies are not in front of the boss, sword positioning, prey mechanic and how to handle it, where to bait orbs to, how to pick up the double prey mechanic, etc etc.)

Basically, your description, whcih took less than a minute, was so aweful that you would lead to more confusion than anything else. It also doesn't mention even a little of how to handle specific liberations.

It could take me upwards of 5-10 minutes to type a proper, role-appropriate description. -_- When they could just as easily look at a video. Though, to be fair - bosses of dungouns won't be this bad, and will be MUCH simpler. I think dungoun bosses are far more tolerable than Extreme Primal bosses, and for that reason - I think different approaches are necessary.

Edit-In #1:: I would like to add (thought about this after) that typing speed is also very much a thing. My typing rate is rediculously fast, although at times in terms of the English language it fails a little bit in being consise and to the point, or gramatically may be confusing. However, even still, someone typing the same thing as me can take upwards of two to three times as long to type it. On the flipside, someone with a faster typing rate than me might well be able to type it out in half the time (Not sure how fast people can go. I've seen Starcraft players man. Never doubt those fingers.)

For EX primals/raid, I think a video or text guide is mandatory. There's too much to describe and you are basically wasting everyone's time when you don't bother to watch a video. In the time it takes us to get in and explain it, one can initiate a vote kick of you. That basically should show that it's too much time to have to wait because one person was inconsiderate of 7 other people's time.

For dungouns/etc, I think explaining things is fine. In part, this is because I think there's a slight element of surprise to meeting the boss at the end of a dungoun, getting to encounter them... It's like the old-school battle screens, when they shatter at a boss, there was always a sort of anticipation and glee I got from seeing them spawn. XD

...

I do, however, feel there is something to address. I feel you very inconsiderate of other's feelings on time. I feel you to be very uncaring for other's perspective on what they find fun, favoring one specific party with a very clear bias. Why is it that someone who wants to get in, and get to something quicker should be treated with any less regard than someone who clearly doesn't care enough to do a little bit of legwork?

Effort. This is the defining factor between someone who has watched a video, and someone who just says "First time, new here, tell me what I need to know." One is a very entitled mindset, expecting things to be done for them within the client of the game because... Reasons? There's not even a good reason for it.

Now let me go further with it - why couldn't that same person, during the que time, go and watch the video during their que? Why couldnt' they be bothered to do something that would take them "No more than 5 minutes" (just like typing) to assist the party? Why is it ok to be self-considerate only if it is a learning and not anyone else?

In my opinion? We are all part of a team. But everyone having this mindset of 'gimme gimme' instead of 'how can I help the party' is where the issue comes from. People like myself will explain things - bujt really. Please come, try to understand that the same word - arrogance - can be used to define someone who expects and explanation without doing anything themselves (And sometimes moreso)

The same people think they don't /need/ a video, because they are skilled [I guess?] enough to get by with a text description (Inflated sense of one's own abilities) and this often proves wrong.

The same people think they don't /need/ to be told anything and lead to a wipe (Same definition as above)

The same people think they deserve to have things hand delivered to them (inflated sense of one's own worth) because they are new/a special snowflake, and they shouldn't have to do anything.

To me, Arrogant is a perfect word to define someone who expects a text description to be handed to them if they're going to ask for one.

[Sapphic]

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So the gist of it is that you want other players to accomodate for you by typing it out a guide inside the content, but you are unwilling to accomodate them by reading a guide already written?

Also, you do get players selecting languages they cannot understand or communicate in, in some extreme cases out right refuse to going into hard content blind. Should we have to learn another language to accomodate those players also. FYI I speak 3 languages already, auto translate does not cut it. Especially if you dont know the languages grammer and structure.

Expecting others to do for you what you are perfectly capable of doing for yourself is entitlement and selfish.