Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[SakuraMidori]

Nothing but a poor excuse to be unprepared and to inflict that on strangers. Preparation is never a bad thing. But feel free to make a party finder instead.

Or if you your self want everyone 100% prepared then i my tip to you stay out of DF and make your own party. I for one am not saying i expect others to hold players hands and help them do everything hell don't explain stuff no ones making anyone. But if you wipe a few times in a DF and feel the need to cuss or boot someone even though they stated they are new then you may need to check yourself

[Fatedkiss]

Some ppl like to go in blind and some ppl just learn better from doing it them self anyone can read about something sure. But to actually perform well that's a different story it's like football you see and hear the plan but then doing the play won't always work 100% that's life

I feel like a lot of this thread is being misunderstood or it somehow turned into people believing everyone is saying that people need to explain fights to new people. The way I see what everyone is saying is not that new people are required to explain anything. People are just simply trying to state that Its alright to not explain anything just don't expect everyone to be perfect, especially if your not going to be helping.

The thing about the guides is they can give you what I would consider technical knowledge. Actually doing something is experience that you wont get just reading or watching a guide.
Just as Sakura here is trying to say. In the real world there's having a college degree, and then having the actual experience of doing what you studied for.

[cgbspender]

I had a scholar first timer as a co-healer in A4 today, which he immediatly stated. I was expecting the tank to wait a couple of seconds before the pull to let us (or ask himself) whether the scholar knew anything about the fight. Hell no. He pulled immediatly. The scholar was doing a great job all along, taking a few orbs and all, and just before we reached last phase, I found some seconds to type "Stay away from everybody else", which he understood quickly and ran to the outside. But as the fight had been pulled so quickly, I didn't have time or anybody else to explain the debuff in last phase, and he didn't survive. I found myself solo-healing to the last mob's ~35% at which point we wiped as I completely ran OoM.

Honestly, I don't have such a good partner as a healer everyday, especially when it's theirs first time. And I was really confident we'd kill it on second try, with just a few more tips given to him.
And then pops the votekick window.., kicking one of the most intuitive and good healer I had ever seen.
Simply told them "what do you think you 're doing, kicking a good healer just because he's new ?" and I left too - ON STRIKE.

[Edewen]

And then pops the votekick window.., kicking one of the most intuitive and good healer I had ever seen.
Simply told them "what do you think you 're doing, kicking a good healer just because he's new ?" and I left too - ON STRIKE.

Exception to the rule though. Sure there area few people who will simply be amazing. And based on his performance, it is clear he did at least some background research on the fight beforehand. I would have left with you.

[Mhikail]

Was also waiting on the
DF v. PF debate.
Been said to the ground time and time again.

If you're running DF, you're rollin' the die there.
Ensemble a PF and you should have better luck.
Stop tryna make people watch videos and sh!t if they don't wanna.

[Sapphic]

If you're running DF, you're rollin' the die there.
Ensemble a PF and you should have better luck.
Stop tryna make people watch videos and sh!t if they don't wanna.

Thing is, you end up rolling the die with PF parties also. Learning parties? Good chance will still get people going in expecting a one-shot, even though it explicitly says "Learning party". Then the opposite, kill/farm parties, you get people joining expecting to be taught or carried.

[Zahbi]

There are a couple of issues at play here.

One: There is not a very clear expectation on how Duty Finder parties are supposed to work. I've heard a lot about how using DF as learning is something that NA players tend to do, whereas JP players generally use DF for experienced parties and quick clears. Both ways can make sense, so there's this tug-of-war between people who think that it's okay to experience content via DF blindly and people who expect experienced players. The way DF is currently set up, it kind of favors the former group in that for most of the game you're encouraged to learn by doing or active experimentation. When leveling, no one tells you to go read a guide for a dungeon or trial, perhaps partially because the content is not difficult enough to warrant it. But the important point is that players are basically groomed from the start to go in blind and experiment. We need to have a definitive stance on what to expect in DF so that people know full well what they're getting themselves into.

Two: Text guides and videos are great contributions to any gaming community. However, some people can find it problematic that this research is required. Why? Think about it. You're having to study up on something. For a game. A game that should be about fun and adventuring and experiencing stuff. This doesn't necessarily justify unpreparedness, but it's still a valid concern due to it now being a requirement instead of something you have the option of doing if you're explicitly wanting to be the best of the best. However, it leads me to my bigger point: reading guides and watching videos does not guarantee victory. There are people who learn best by observation and can deal with mechanics simply by watching. However, there are others whom while they're able to possibly grasp basic concepts of the fight via these methods, will not actually get good at these fights until they actually do them. The community doesn't favor this type of active experimentation beyond leveling (and sometimes while leveling.)

I don't really know how to reconcile the second point, because both sides have valid reasoning. If you're going to do a random crapshoot with DF, you shouldn't expect everyone you get to know the fight as well as you do. But at the same time, if you don't know the fight, you can't really expect everyone to be willing to explain and be patient. Some of us have done the fight so many times that it's part of muscle memory, but try to get us to explain it and words fail us. Or we try to be as thorough as possible and still forget something really important. The only thing I can think of is an addon that WoW had where you could type a command and automatically post boss strats into party chat. Some people have done that via macros in XIV, but others get irritated with the party spam.

[Gardes]

Honestly, if you require me not to expect anything out of you if I meet you in df, how can you expect anything out of me? What's stopping me from thinking "eh, i wont ever get to see phase 3 and beyond with this group, so why should i give my 100% if that's not even enough to get past phase 1?". Then I'd be killing your chance at learning the fight even more even if we both want to see the learn the entire fight.

Hell, technically you cant expect me not to bail and waste your time that you already spent in queue either. 'People' made some unspoken rule that they try to enforce but I would be playing the rule of the system and took the penalty. If they're not 'wrong', I can't be wrong for that either. They can play the 'decency' card but shouldn't I be able to do the same?

[FudoMyoo]

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)

As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

[Nekodar]

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)

As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

It's not about learning a new dungeon that is made to be reasonably easy because it's meant for levelling.
It's about learning a bit harder fights that require coordination and some level of skill. Like Alexander. It's all fairly easy IF you know what to do, but there seems to be a mentality that says if you can enter with DF, you can go in blind and faceroll it.