Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Dracosavarian]

Gods the elitism being shown by some of the people in this thread is stomach churning. Ugh.

A lot of people seem to conveniently forget, or just really never bother to think about it, but...people learn in different ways.


For those of you who are constantly sitting there saying, watch a video before going in! and so on...it is abundantly clear to me that this lot of people either do not know, do not care to know, or just simply have forgotten that there are 3 types of learners.

Audio: Basically they learn by listening and hearing what is being told to them

Visual: Learns via Charts, Graphs, or even Videos one might say

Kinesthetic: These people learn by doing. Actual hands on stuff. You know, diving into a dungeon and learning the mechanics...like everyone does the first time content is released.

Every Minutiae of a video will not be remembered. Every detail of a guide, will not be remembered. Kinesthtic learners especially are not going to remember every minute detail. I've watched videos to try and refresh my brain after a years absence on some dungeons and when I get in I still find myself struggling to remember what the video said on old and indeed new content.

Don't want to deal with constant wipes or even the most minor of issues? Form a party on your own, old FFXI style where people used to sit there forming their own parties to go level. Then you have a right to gripe.

But don't seriously go in expecting your elitist stubborn, pig headed view to be the rule of law in Duty Finder. Crimeny. I've heard constant cries of entitlement in other circles best attributed to conversations outside of gaming but never have I seen a community so thoroughly rife with a sense of entitlement as this one has.

You know what? I'm a tank. Pld and Drk. If someone is new, I explain it to them, always. I am always more than happy to help people and explain mechanics they might not understand. I went through several, several, Ravana fights with new people and I always took the time and had the patience to work through it with the group and the clear was always attained.

If you don't want to explain things, if you want to have that sense of entitlement, fine. Feel free to do so. Just realize the only person to blame when you are eating dirt along with the rest of the group is because you refused to speak up and help in addition to the rest of the group that decided to remain silent.

You have only yourselves to blame. Period. It takes literally all of less than a minute to give a quick, brief, concise run down on most mechanics. I do it repeatedly without issue and always ask and most of the time can get a quick rundown as well.

If someone comes in, says hey I am new, can you give me a brief rundown...and if everyone refuses and just jumps in...well...

The group only has themselves to blame. Not the newbie. Period and end of story. If someone is intentionally trying to learn, and do their best, and heeding the advice you give, cut them some slack. You were new once too you know. Might do some good to remember the kindness another individual bestowed upon you and perhaps return it?

Like I said. This community has a massive sense of entitlement. If even the slightest thing goes wrong, everyone goes off like a 5 year old raging at the internet. It's hilarious. Especially all of these entitled responses of "Watch a video and don't be a burden to your group or we'll kick you! "

Right. Because heaven forbid your raid take 5 more minutes...

Yeesh.


OP. You did nothing wrong. Requeue, try again. It's all you can do man. Duty Finder, you are playing roulette. No telling what kind of people you are going to get. Just keep trucking. Yes, it sucks. But you do eventually find people willing to help, like myself...instead of those whose sense of self importance is above all else in their eyes.

[Adire]

snip

Don't really see how its elitist or unreasonable to want people to read up as much as they can prior to going into a duty rather than after going into it, but okay.

And again, I don't think anyone is saying guides are a replacement for experience. A hands-on learner has NO advantages from a player explanation right before a fight over watching a video/reading a guide before a fight. They will learn from experience the best either way, so again, it's pointless to try and get an explanation right before a fight vs researching it ahead of time.

Expecting people to type out a quick summary (which might I remind you, is likely not going to prepare you adequately), or even worse, a long drawn out explanation of a fight right before it happens is pretty entitled and pointless though...why not get that done before doing a duty? Why make people waste their time for no reason?

Not to mention, trying to read a player explanation and get a good idea of mechanics is like cramming for a test an hour before it happens. It's just not going to beat having plenty of time to study (AKA the time you have to watch videos/read guides before you do a duty) in allowing you to be prepared.

[Dracosavarian]

Snip

I've explained over 5 different Ravana fights one after another to complete and utter newbies. No videos beforehand.

All of them cleared without a single wipe. Because I took the time to explain it to the group in a way that was easy to understand and was concise.

Communication, and how you explain it, is key. It can sink in. You just have to know how to word the message.

[Adire]

I've explained over 5 different Ravana fights one after another to complete and utter newbies. No videos beforehand.

All of them cleared without a single wipe. Because I took the time to explain it to the group in a way that was easy to understand and was concise.

Communication, and how you explain it, is key. It can sink in. You just have to know how to word the message.

That's great. But why couldn't they watch videos or read a guide beforehand?

MrHappy's videos are easy to understand and detailed. MTQCapture's videos are easy to understand and are concise. They can be watched, or text guides can be read prior to going into the duty, and doing so is more considerate of your fellow human beings.

Then you could have cleared them without wipes and without having to hold up 8 people to type out explanations.

I'm definitely a hands-on learner myself, yet I still make sure I am well aware of mechanics prior to going in. I may still mess up in practice due to lack of experience, but I understand the mechanics and how they work in my mind.

I do not feel it's considerate of the other 3/7/23 people for me to expect them to hold themselves up and explain to me what I could have gotten from a video or text guide prior to entering.

[Dracosavarian]

That's great. But why couldn't they watch videos or read a guide beforehand?

MrHappy's videos are easy to understand and detailed. MTQCapture's videos are easy to understand and are concise. They can be watched, or text guides can be read prior to going into the duty, and doing so is more considerate of your fellow human beings.

Then you could have cleared them without wipes and without having to hold up 8 people to type out explanations.

I'm definitely a hands-on learner myself, yet I still make sure I am well aware of mechanics prior to going in. I may still mess up in practice due to lack of experience, but I understand the mechanics and how they work in my mind.

I do not feel it's considerate of the other 3/7/23 people to hold themselves up and explain to me what I could have gotten from a video or text guide prior to entering.

The question should moreso be...why do you yourself have an issue with someone asking for a brief rundown of the mechanics and for that to be briefly explained when you are using Duty Finder, knowing full well you may run into this? Or the rest of the group for that matter. Know how many new players I've run into low level dungeons of late? A lot. I still help them. Even when they screw up.

But...I'll humor you.

The answer is, they shouldn't have to. A dungeon, or even a raid, should not be the equivalent of a teacher slamming down a stack of books and saying to someone, test is in 5 minutes. Read all of this. The first groups that delved into that dungeon for the very first time did not have benefit of videos. They had to learn on their own. No one expects them to delve into matters like others in this community apparently do 5 minutes after Mr Happy puts a video up.

It's 2 weeks out now from when heavensward was launched. 2 Weeks. It should not be unexpected that you are going to run into people who are new. Getting up in arms about this is the height of hilarity to me. It just is. Moreover, I view it as people basically feeling they are more important than others. Basically, to me, it's the height of arrogance and pride. You view yourself as more important than the other person. Your time, in a game of all things, as more valuable than helping them learn.

Others who are genuine when they ask for help, or when they say Hey I've watched a vid but I don't remember everything. Can you summarize it again? But no, they are shunned and met with silence, and then rage and a kick when they screw up because no one spoke up, despite how hard they may have tried.

I watch MTQ's videos to summarize things. I find her videos far more concise than Mr Happy's who tends to drone on forever and forever and drives me insane with nigh on infinite levels of rage because I feel the dude just doesn't get to the point. But that's my personal opinion in regards to his work. Even then, even with my research, I still don't remember everything going in my first time. I still ask the members in my party for a brief synopsis at the boss after I say "Here's what I remember"

And you know what? They take the time to tell me. Because the group relies on me to keep the mob from chewing their face off. Kind of important. Aside from that though, I'd like to think that those who do speak up are just being kind and helpful.

Long story short, if you are in DF, no one should expect anything. Period. But people are. Seeing a Party Finder Listing saying "Know the fight!" is one thing. When you sign up for that party and you don't know anything, or ask questions there saying you are new...you get what you deserve.

But Duty Finder is another beast altogether. Like or not, the entire group of you, all random, is basically dumped on an island and stranded for lack of better terms. Survival depends on teamwork.

Just like Real Life, everyone is not going to know everything. How do you survive? By working together and helping others. If you were stranded on said island and didn't know how to make a fire via primitive methods to warm yourself, and I did...I would not hoard that knowledge. I'd help you. Because ultimately my survival depends on you surviving as well.

A rough analogy, but the basic point is the same. You are all thrown together. Like it or not, that is the result. Yes, you can do a kick. But doing so when someone is genuinely trying to learn only makes the group who did the kicking the jerks in the end. They are the bad guys. Not the newbie.

[Adire]

snip

I have an issue with it because the information already exists. It's this simple, don't really know how to make it any simpler:

When you're about to go into a duty for the first time, you have three choices.

A.) Go in completely blind with no interest in knowing mechanics beforehand, do not seek explanation. This is a playstyle some enjoy, and that's fine with me.

B.) Have an interest in knowing what to do, study up on it until you're comfortable.

C.) Have an interest in knowing what to do, but go in blind and ask/expect explanations.

B and C have the same result. You are instructed on what to do. The difference is, someone who chooses to do B shows better consideration for other players. Someone who chooses C forces the group to either stop and explain, or not explain and risk the new player becoming a liability. This is ultimately pointless, because said player wants to know what to do, has the information available, but chooses not to use it and forces players to stop and give it to them anyways.

Not remembering everything is fine. Sometimes even after watching a video a billion times, I don't remember something. Players who have 0% understanding and expect to be instructed all the way to 100% understanding are being extremely selfish however.

Watching and still not understanding some things is fine, though usually videos even without experience can give you enough knowledge to not be completely lost. Asking for a few tips on fight mechanics is fine. Asking for a full explanation of fight mechanics or asking for a summary of them that could have been easily seen online before going in and having no knowledge of what to do at all prior is not fine.

And trust me, I expect chaos in DF. However, that doesn't mean I can't advocate that players not force other players to wait on them for this when it could easily be avoided and in the end is pointless, because the same information players have to type is already available online. People really like to say veterans are inconsiderate of newbies, but newbies are quite capable of being inconsiderate as well. Going in blind without wanting to be blind to the fight is very inconsiderate.

And I don't think the island comparison or comparison to content that's been out for 10 minutes is very good. When you go into a duty, you know there are mechanics and know they will affect you and your team. You don't know if you'll be stranded on an island, so cannot know to prepare. You can know to prepare for Alexander when you're about to go into Alexander.

Players playing in content that's been out for 10 minutes have no guides, so obviously cannot read guides. Guides are out now and the content in them is common knowledge. If you aren't wanting to go in blind and want explanation, there is no reason to force players to explain what a guide explains.

Edit: I'd also like to mention, I DO explain things if I have to. I appreciate players who study up and do not need much explanation far more than those who choose to give me a choice between holding everyone up or dealing with a liability though.

And as long as players who go in and don't seek or listen to explanations for their first time don't become a huge problem, I am fine with that playstyle. It is a playstyle. A player who wants player explanation is playing the same way a player who studies up is playing however, but is being unnecessarily inconvenient.

[Dracosavarian]

Snip.

So the basic gist you are saying is...you don't have the patience to literally type out a few sentences on a keyboard...we'll use Crystal Tower Part 1, Final boss for example...and do this?

Ok, final boss. Basic Rundown: Dodge all aoes, claws will appear and snag players. Kill claws. When he starts Casting Flare, run to the platform I mark and stay put. Mob will appear while the shield is up. Kill it. That's it in a nutshell.

Or Ravana for example...

Basic Rundown: He changes stance. Stance change will screw with your targeting so be aware. Do not stand where the MT is ever. Always keep your back to a fence at all times or risk being knocked off like Titan. When he summons butterflies, all players save MT must each kill their own individual butterfly. Moon take priority. Burn them down asap. Healers, at one point he will mark his targets, 1, 2, 3, 4 with swords. Be aware that this is the order of attack he will hammer people. OT, be aware that at one point, no matter how much hate I have, he will turn and absolutely pound the living daylights out of you. Be ready for it and use your ult if you have to. Healers, be aware of that. Aside from that, dodge aoes. Any questions?

Both take me less than a minute to type out.

Seriously? Typing out that much is a hindrance? Really? You are honestly finding doing so little, to be such a huge problem? Doing so little is a waste of your time? Or others? Has the world grown so meek that literally moving your fingers over the span of a keyboard is a source of frustration now? I'm at a loss for words...

If the player is repeatedly wiping the raid, even after you have tried again and again to explain, fine, I can see your point. But realize, watching a video probably wouldn't help that player out that much to begin with.

I'm sorry...but...if you feel one minute of that or even 5, is forcing players to wait...I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't take a lot to help a person understand the fight. It truly doesn't. I do it all the time.

As I said, if you have issues with that, I view it as arrogance. Your time is more precious than their own type of scenario. In a game of all things. A game. Seriously...

No matter how much you boil it down, it always culminates back to the person who holds that view in the end. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. A sense of "How dare they waste my time"

If you expect chaos in DF, you should expect new players who ask help. I don't know what else to say beyond that. To act untowards that person when you knowingly launch into DF expecting bad things...well...*shakes head*

In the end, I would always, ALWAYS take a new player who genuinely wants to learn vs someone who watched a video, says nothing, and repeatedly wipes the raid anyways.

I appreciate that you are being kind in your words and taking the time to explain your position, but I do not agree with it. Nor will I ever. Because in the end, the result is the same. You don't want to help. You are tired of dealing with it, or whatever reason...and don't want to take the time that basically amounts to 1 minute or 5 minutes at most, when it could prevent a great deal of frustration and rage to begin with.

Why? Why cause a self inflicted wound? Such things make little sense to me. *Shrugs* But then again, I always try to help people. Because in the end I'd like to always think someone would return that kindness to me.


But...I've said my peace and the consensus of my thoughts remain the same. I wish everyone well, and for them to take care and Good Luck in all that they do.

Take care all and be well.

[Kaedan]

Right. Because heaven forbid your raid take 5 more minutes...

Yeesh.

Your entire post is hyperbole in the extreme. For one, being an X learner only means you learn most easily/best through that type of learning. It doesn't mean you're incapable of learning through other methods, or at least getting a basic understanding of mechanics.

But the quoted part is just plain insulting. If someone doesn't understand the mechanics of A1 or A4 and screw it up for everyone in the final phases, that can be over 15 minutes wasted.

[Dracosavarian]

Your entire post is hyperbole in the extreme. For one, being an X learner only means you learn most easily/best through that type of learning. It doesn't mean you're incapable of learning through other methods, or at least getting a basic understanding of mechanics.

But the quoted part is just plain insulting. If someone doesn't understand the mechanics of A1 or A4 and screw it up for everyone in the final phases, that can be over 15 minutes wasted.

Then go to Party finder if you don't want to deal with it. Again, people learn differently. Or, take the 5 minutes, and do a very quick brief rundown. It seriously does not take that long to break down a fight's mechanics into a quick synopsis.

Again, Duty Finder is a gamble. It's a roulette. You want to farm it ? Or clear the area you are queuing for without a single screw up? Do Party finder. I see groups in there constantly forming. Issue solved. Then people have a right to complain.

If you find my post insulting, that is not my issue. Common Courtesy and treating others kindly seems to have fallen more into a term of Uncommon Courtesy it seems. Again, Duty Finder is a roulette. A gamble. Your sense of rushing and farming and entitlement is your problem. Not the new players. And that is the attitude many who gripe take, this sense of...how dare you waste my time? That's the general gist of that mentality. As I said, some of us learn by actually doing the content, myself included. Even with Videos, videos are nowhere near the level that first hand experience can teach me. And many others for that matter.

Maybe I'm just alone in the fact that I enjoy playing the game and I also like helping people out and helping them to clear stuff with me, and by doing so, they become a better player. But I'm a tank. I took up the job because I enjoy helping people. So it generally bothers me when I see others treat people like dirt.

Even when I was a Dark Knight in FFXI I bit a bullet repeatedly and ate an exp loss to help others in my party. Consider it a part of who I am. As I said...Common Courtesy and kindness to your fellow human being.

Try it sometime. You might find it can go a long way.

[Kaedan]

Then go to Party finder if you don't want to deal with it. Again, people learn differently. Or, take the 5 minutes, and do a very quick brief rundown. It seriously does not take that long to break down a fight's mechanics into a quick synopsis.

This is what you're not getting. The people who go in blind, at this point, are the minority. They are the one inconveniencing the majority. When it comes to courtesy, it always goes in favor of inconveniencing the least amount of people. In this case, wiping because someone didn't bother telling everyone it was their first time, or having to explain to them when they could have looked it up on their own is them inconveniencing the majority. That is not courtesy, that is rudeness, the exact opposite.

There's a reason the Party Finder has a "learning party" option.

Even when I was a Dark Knight in FFXI I bit a bullet repeatedly and ate an exp loss to help others in my party. Consider it a part of who I am. As I said...Common Courtesy and kindness to your fellow human being.

Try it sometime. You might find it can go a long way.

You don't even bother to read, do you? I have no problem explaining things to people and helping new players, as I've already said in this thread. In FFXI, I actually was someone who would provoke a mis-pull and tell others to run, eating the XP loss for the group, or do a death pull to get players through Arrapago or Caedarva. As for your insulting attitude, I find it hard to believe you have any courtesy in you at all. I bet in FFXI, you were actually one of those who would mob train other people to claim NMs/HNMs.

In any case, most of us who perceive at least gaining cursory knowledge of an instance before entering (unless it's brand new content) as common courtesy are still more than willing to help others... so stop trying to demonize us.