Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Fatedkiss]

Some ppl like to go in blind and some ppl just learn better from doing it them self anyone can read about something sure. But to actually perform well that's a different story it's like football you see and hear the plan but then doing the play won't always work 100% that's life

I feel like a lot of this thread is being misunderstood or it somehow turned into people believing everyone is saying that people need to explain fights to new people. The way I see what everyone is saying is not that new people are required to explain anything. People are just simply trying to state that Its alright to not explain anything just don't expect everyone to be perfect, especially if your not going to be helping.

The thing about the guides is they can give you what I would consider technical knowledge. Actually doing something is experience that you wont get just reading or watching a guide.
Just as Sakura here is trying to say. In the real world there's having a college degree, and then having the actual experience of doing what you studied for.

[Jynx]

But feel free to make a party finder instead.

Feel free to make a party finder for the experienced people you want as well.

Use the duty finder with 0 expectations either way it's the only realistic thing to expect. Expecting random people to conform to what you think is "Standard" is foolish. New people and experienced people alike should avoid the plague that is the duty finder if they want a specific experience.

This "Convient" feature has become such a source of toxicity in the community.

[Mhikail]

Was also waiting on the
DF v. PF debate.
Been said to the ground time and time again.

If you're running DF, you're rollin' the die there.
Ensemble a PF and you should have better luck.
Stop tryna make people watch videos and sh!t if they don't wanna.

[Zahbi]

There are a couple of issues at play here.

One: There is not a very clear expectation on how Duty Finder parties are supposed to work. I've heard a lot about how using DF as learning is something that NA players tend to do, whereas JP players generally use DF for experienced parties and quick clears. Both ways can make sense, so there's this tug-of-war between people who think that it's okay to experience content via DF blindly and people who expect experienced players. The way DF is currently set up, it kind of favors the former group in that for most of the game you're encouraged to learn by doing or active experimentation. When leveling, no one tells you to go read a guide for a dungeon or trial, perhaps partially because the content is not difficult enough to warrant it. But the important point is that players are basically groomed from the start to go in blind and experiment. We need to have a definitive stance on what to expect in DF so that people know full well what they're getting themselves into.

Two: Text guides and videos are great contributions to any gaming community. However, some people can find it problematic that this research is required. Why? Think about it. You're having to study up on something. For a game. A game that should be about fun and adventuring and experiencing stuff. This doesn't necessarily justify unpreparedness, but it's still a valid concern due to it now being a requirement instead of something you have the option of doing if you're explicitly wanting to be the best of the best. However, it leads me to my bigger point: reading guides and watching videos does not guarantee victory. There are people who learn best by observation and can deal with mechanics simply by watching. However, there are others whom while they're able to possibly grasp basic concepts of the fight via these methods, will not actually get good at these fights until they actually do them. The community doesn't favor this type of active experimentation beyond leveling (and sometimes while leveling.)

I don't really know how to reconcile the second point, because both sides have valid reasoning. If you're going to do a random crapshoot with DF, you shouldn't expect everyone you get to know the fight as well as you do. But at the same time, if you don't know the fight, you can't really expect everyone to be willing to explain and be patient. Some of us have done the fight so many times that it's part of muscle memory, but try to get us to explain it and words fail us. Or we try to be as thorough as possible and still forget something really important. The only thing I can think of is an addon that WoW had where you could type a command and automatically post boss strats into party chat. Some people have done that via macros in XIV, but others get irritated with the party spam.

[SakuraMidori]

Nothing but a poor excuse to be unprepared and to inflict that on strangers. Preparation is never a bad thing. But feel free to make a party finder instead.

Or if you your self want everyone 100% prepared then i my tip to you stay out of DF and make your own party. I for one am not saying i expect others to hold players hands and help them do everything hell don't explain stuff no ones making anyone. But if you wipe a few times in a DF and feel the need to cuss or boot someone even though they stated they are new then you may need to check yourself

[Gardes]

Honestly, if you require me not to expect anything out of you if I meet you in df, how can you expect anything out of me? What's stopping me from thinking "eh, i wont ever get to see phase 3 and beyond with this group, so why should i give my 100% if that's not even enough to get past phase 1?". Then I'd be killing your chance at learning the fight even more even if we both want to see the learn the entire fight.

Hell, technically you cant expect me not to bail and waste your time that you already spent in queue either. 'People' made some unspoken rule that they try to enforce but I would be playing the rule of the system and took the penalty. If they're not 'wrong', I can't be wrong for that either. They can play the 'decency' card but shouldn't I be able to do the same?

[SDaemon]

It's common courtesy and good manners to at least know what the fight mechanics are before using DF. No one is suggesting you have to be "Pro" or anything like that. Just cursory knowledge of the mechanics... you don't even have to watch a video.

You might consider it common courtesy and good manners. I do not. I am perfectly fine with players going in blind to a DF encounter. I don't expect players to research an encounter before doing it.

When you sign up for a DF you get cast into a pool of random people. If you want to impose expectations onto people than make a PF where you have that level of control. In a DF group, you might be the only one with cursory knowledge of the fight and that is just something you need to go in expecting can happen.

[FudoMyoo]

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)

As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

[PetiteMalFleur]

True, but I expect a less successful run on a raid in DF simply because at least with PF you can state a requirement ( either looking for experienced players or form a learning party ) with far less hassle. Hence why I prefer to either use PF or go with my FC.

As a result I don't really hold any expectations for the DF and explain anyway.

The expectations in pf are whatever random group decides is the problem. People joining df should be prepared for anything.

Also, OP didn't want to go in blind. He wanted the group to type up a guide for him. He can't say he doesn't understand guides when he didn't even try to watch one. Also, some guides I find extremely confusing while others I find do a better job breaking down fights. If you don't understand one find another. At least the effort is made.

You are very kind to take time to explain fights but you shouldn't feel obligated to.

[Edewen]

Or if you your self want everyone 100% prepared then i my tip to you stay out of DF and make your own party. I for one am not saying i expect others to hold players hands and help them do everything hell don't explain stuff no ones making anyone. But if you wipe a few times in a DF and feel the need to cuss or boot someone even though they stated they are new then you may need to check yourself

Who said anything about 100%. General idea is all you need and all you will get from any guide written or video. I go in expecting a couple wipes may be needed. But someone being so lazy as to not look at a single writeup on a fight, is also likely not going to have done research on their class and rotations and putting out 50% of what they would be capable of with a bit of effort.

I do blind runs in DF. If I keep failing I'll ask party member advise, then ask FC advice then if I still fail, I'll read a guide. (or watch a video guide)
As for those saying Japanese using PF to learn mechanics of a new dungeon, I seriously doubt so. I have never seen PF looking for a learning party for Dusk Vigil/Sohm Al and Avery.

Nor have I. Luckily that is not exactly what is being discussed here. You do illustrate the main issue however, as people clearly don't see the line between leveling content made to be facerolled and end game content that expects a quite a bit more from the player than a pulse.