Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

[Kicoe]

I'll remind you that raiding is a minority of the game. Not everyone raids, not all dungeons are raids. Raids are not required to progress through the main scenario, nor are they available in the roulettes. And you'll ignore it because that's all that you think is important while ignoring the other 95% of the time.

Raiding might be a minority of the game, however you have to accept the fact that jobs are balanced around raids, not around four man dungeons or solo content.

[Aiselia]

Raiding might be a minority of the game, however you have to accept the fact that jobs are balanced around raids, not around four man dungeons or solo content.

Which they shouldn't be. They should be balanced around the majority of the game. Conditions can be put on raids that don't affect the rest of the game. For example, force a one-per-raid class restriction if they're so scared about people stacking classes. Or how about for every DPS of X attack type, the resistance to that attack type is increased? 0 for one, 10% for two, 25% for three, 50% for four. Stack 4 bards? The boss now has an extra 50% piercing resistance. If they want to enforce class diversity, punishing an entire class is not the way to go.

How much would balance really be thrown out of whack if the 10% weapon damage hit across the board for Bards was instead shifted into an extra 10% DPS loss while playing songs? That'd be balanced for if/when it's actually needed, but not hurt Bards that don't even raid.

Accepting bad design does not excuse it from being bad design.

[Kicoe]

Which they shouldn't be. They should be balanced around the majority of the game. Conditions can be put on raids that don't affect the rest of the game. For example, force a one-per-raid class restriction if they're so scared about people stacking classes. Or how about for every DPS of X attack type, the resistance to that attack type is increased? 0 for one, 10% for two, 25% for three, 50% for four. Stack 4 bards? The boss now has an extra 50% piercing resistance. If they want to enforce class diversity, punishing an entire class is not the way to go.

How much would balance really be thrown out of whack if the 10% weapon damage hit across the board for Bards was instead shifted into an extra 10% DPS loss while playing songs? That'd be balanced for if/when it's actually needed, but not hurt Bards that don't even raid.

Accepting bad design does not excuse it from being bad design.

If they would lower the skillcap of Bard, which I guess is the class you are talking about mainly in here, and adjust the class around four man dungeons the class would be way over the top in actual raid content. If SE would adjust Bards damage so it would be more suited to the average player who is content with his four man dungeons, can you imagine what players would be able to do that are able to absolutely maximize any given class? In that case, assuming melees and casters would be left untouched for whatever reason just to throw the average Bard a bone, there would be no need to bring a melee or caster anymore.

As it is right now, I've seen very impressive Bards that put out awesome damage (see A1 and A1 for example) and while doing so they know exactly when which song is needed, which is incredibly nice to have in actual "hard" content. Pretty sure Bard is fine as it is right now, solo or group play.

[Aiselia]

there would be no need to bring a melee or caster anymore.

So... you just chose to ignore the part about applying conditions to raids to make there be a reason to bring them, then? I see.

Oh, you also chose to ignore the question about how much balance would be lost if they shifted the 10% weapon damage loss to extra damage loss during songs so that we're not punished for having the songs and then punished again for playing them.

So uh... why bother quoting what I say if you aren't replying to what I say?

Are we just wasting time now?

Of course we are. You'll never convince me and I'll never convince you. I thought that should be obvious.

depends on how perceptive you are.

No, I'm pretty sure that how punctuation works is rather objective.

Why is it TP not foes?

Because we're talking about non-raids. Y'know, things like soloing or roulette dungeons. Things where you won't always have a caster.

I mean, I could have said "A song that increases magic damage when you may not even have a caster because you don't control roulette groups".

If you are implying people would favor a drg for utility reasons because of a 15% crit chance

For someone who griped about me missing context, you certainly seem to have forgotten that. We're talking about non-raids, remember? Where either you don't control the makeup of your group (roulette) or things like TP/MP songs are not needed because fights don't last long enough.

Would I favour a DRG who does more damage and can increase damage of the entire party plus the healing of the healer (Extra crit chance on a SCH makes for lovely Adloq shields that let me pop into Cleric stance for a while longer) over a BRD who can refill TP that won't need refilling, refill MP that won't need refilling, or potentially buff caster damage if we have a caster or they happen to play it during a time the healer has a chance to attack?

Yes.

you can't be offensive if you are dead

"but why would anyone jump off a cliff to begin with?"

what are you expecting bard to get?

What am I expecting? Nothing.

What am I hoping for? Their play style back, and hopefully equalized weapon damage, even if it means moving that loss of weapon damage to the penalty for playing songs.

Drg already has a piercing buff, if bard gets the piercing buff it'll buff drg some more so that's not viable.

Actually, they'd most likely not stack, like how Dancing Edge and Storm's Eye don't.

[Kicoe]

So... you just chose to ignore the part about applying conditions to raids to make there be a reason to bring them, then? I see.

Oh, you also chose to ignore the question about how much balance would be lost if they shifted the 10% weapon damage loss to extra damage loss during songs so that we're not punished for having the songs and then punished again for playing them.

So uh... why bother quoting what I say if you aren't replying to what I say?

Let me say that again, SE, or for that matter any MMORPG dev will balance jobs/classes around the hardest content, it doesn't work the other way around. That's why you wont have class conditions for raids that wouldn't apply anywhere else. Also, Bards that don't raid, when do you see them sing Ballad or Paeon again aka getting "punished"?

[Aiselia]

Let me say that again, SE, or for that matter any MMORPG dev will balance jobs/classes around the hardest content, it doesn't work the other way around.

Restating your point doesn't make it good design. It's lazy design to just nerf a class across the board and not think about alternate ways that won't affect the majority.

Also, Bards that don't raid, when do you see them sing Ballad or Paeon again aka getting "punished"?

100% of the time, because they take a 10% weapon damage hit just for having the songs.

Which is my point. Which I thought was clear. If they don't play the songs, why should they have 10% less damage for having them?

[Kicoe]

Restating your point doesn't make it good design. It's lazy design to just nerf a class across the board and not think about alternate ways that won't affect the majority.



100% of the time, because they take a 10% weapon damage hit just for having the songs.

Which is my point. Which I thought was clear. If they don't play the songs, why should they have 10% less damage for having them?

If you don't like the design and call it bad it's not my issue, it seems to be an issue on your end. Also, honest question: are you aware of what a Bard is capable in terms of damage output?

[Minorinz]

No, I'm pretty sure that how punctuation works is rather objective.

That sounds subjective to me, ironically. I'm literally telling you what I meant yet you are seeing it the way you want to. Can't help you there.

Because we're talking about non-raids. Y'know, things like soloing or roulette dungeons. Things where you won't always have a caster.

I mean, I could have said "A song that increases magic damage when you may not even have a caster because you don't control roulette groups".

Healers do magical damage, healers always count. Also, what makes you think a drg/nin/monk will be using any of their utility correctly? They are not really required or expected to in df parties. As for pre-mades then taking a caster is always a choice. The thing about low level or easy content is, the teamplay is very poor, it's basically everyone for themselves .

For someone who griped about me missing context, you certainly seem to have forgotten that. We're talking about non-raids, remember? Where either you don't control the makeup of your group (roulette) or things like TP/MP songs are not needed because fights don't last long enough.

Maybe you are the one constantly talking or being limited about dungeons, however I'm not so don't think that please. Also, I do understand the implications of what could happen if jobs were balanced around dungeon content not raid, because lol I do raid.

Would I favour a DRG who does more damage and can increase damage of the entire party plus the healing of the healer (Extra crit chance on a SCH makes for lovely Adloq shields that let me pop into Cleric stance for a while longer) over a BRD who can refill TP that won't need refilling, refill MP that won't need refilling, or potentially buff caster damage if we have a caster or they happen to play it during a time the healer has a chance to attack?

Or buff the healer's damage with foes while they are on cleric? didn't think you'd miss that one. Believe me when I say, a healer would prefer that lovely foes to dps over a crit adlo.

"but why would anyone jump off a cliff to begin with?"

You are not going to jump off a cliff unless someone pushes you off by telling you not to bring a bard along for difficult content.

What am I expecting? Nothing.

What am I hoping for? Their play style back, and hopefully equalized weapon damage, even if it means moving that loss of weapon damage to the penalty for playing songs.

Not gonna happen, gotta work on them hopes.

Actually, they'd most likely not stack, like how Dancing Edge and Storm's Eye don't.

So you want to take one of drg's utilities and pass it to a bard so then drg won't be as desirable for utility purposes. For that to be viable drg must remain top melee dps over monk and ninja. Which means that it won't be balanced, also means that it is not fair for other melee jobs. A piercing buff though shouldn't be applicable during minuet because then with minuet that's a 40% damage buff, that's too much in one go without even off GCDs. This won't be dynamic for a priority system job like bard that's all over the place, this will actually increase the skillcap even more. I would suggest you forget about the piercing damage buff altogether because it doesn't make sense with the current bard gameplay.

[Aiselia]

I'm literally telling you what I meant yet you are seeing it the way you want to.

I'm seeing it the way it was written. If you meant something else, you should have said it that way. The funny thing about text is that there's no such thing as tone. If you end a sentence with terminating punctuation, then you ended the sentence.

Healers do magical damage, healers always count.

Healers also heal. If they don't get a break to go into cleric's stance, Foe's does nothing for them.

Also, what makes you think a drg/nin/monk will be using any of their utility correctly?

Sorry, are you suggesting that their utilities are less useful because people MIGHT not use them, as opposed to it being useless entirely for the situation?

I'd like to get this clear, because that seems to be what you're saying, but you've already said things you didn't mean.

however I'm not so don't think that please.

Which is nice for you, I'm sure, but unfortunately, since that was the context of what I'm talking about, it makes your comments irrelevant to what I was talking about, therefore being useless answers.

Believe me when I say, a healer would prefer that lovely foes to dps over a crit adlo.

As a healer, believe me when I say that if a tank is too squishy or a group is taking too much damage to go into Cleric stance, Foe's is useless. A crit adloq that gives the tank enough of a cushion to go into cleric stance and actually cast more than one spell before panicking about their health is always more welcome than Foe's.

Not gonna happen, gotta work on them hopes.

We'll see. I'm sure people thought the same thing about original WM until it got buffed.

So you want to take one of drg's utilities

I do? Where did I say that, then?

I would suggest you forget about the piercing damage buff

Easily done, since I'm not the one that brought it up.

[Minorinz]

I'm seeing it the way it was written. If you meant something else, you should have said it that way. The funny thing about text is that there's no such thing as tone. If you end a sentence with terminating punctuation, then you ended the sentence.

common sense says hi. For the question to make sense you need to understand the context, if you do not understand it then it will be obvious and it is because you are going around in circles!

Healers also heal. If they don't get a break to go into cleric's stance, Foe's does nothing for them.

So you just said a crit adlo will help a sch go into cleric, then why are they even bothering with whm/ast dps spells since they won't be dpsing? shame on SE for this.

Sorry, are you suggesting that their utilities are less useful because people MIGHT not use them, as opposed to it being useless entirely for the situation?

You said whats the point of playing foes without a caster even though the healer could be standing right there dps'ing. Unfortunately, even with a caster present foes is not being used due to df players' mentality. All of them utilities are optional, they are not mandatory. Unless it is during a raid, where the teamplay is real.

I'd like to get this clear, because that seems to be what you're saying, but you've already said things you didn't mean.

Or things you can't seem to understand. I hope it gets across one day.

Which is nice for you, I'm sure, but unfortunately, since that was the context of what I'm talking about, it makes your comments irrelevant to what I was talking about, therefore being useless answers.

The buffs or adjustments bards will receive is also affecting the raiding system, ding ding, this concerns me. Dungeons and silly content are simply silly so them buffs are definitely useless. It's like asking for more dps on content you already cleared instead of asking for buffs on content that's more difficult than anything you've ever seen yet.

As a healer, believe me when I say that if a tank is too squishy or a group is taking too much damage to go into Cleric stance, Foe's is useless. A crit adloq that gives the tank enough of a cushion to go into cleric stance and actually cast more than one spell before panicking about their health is always more welcome than Foe's.

They can still crit even without litany lol, foes is there for over a minute. I also heal, surprisingly. I would know.

We'll see. I'm sure people thought the same thing about original WM until it got buffed.

What are you even talking about? The forums were swarming with bard complain threads that didn't even make sense. Also, they weren't hoping. They were demanding.

I do? Where did I say that, then?
Easily done, since I'm not the one that brought it up.

O right I forgot that you are picking up statements then write random comments that lead to nowhere!! My bad again. Although that was too easy. I'm glad the 10% buff is out of the way, even though if you truly played bard you'd know what that meant.

Btw this weird statement you posted earlier, what the hell does it mean?

how much balance would be lost if they shifted the 10% weapon damage loss to extra damage loss during songs so that we're not punished for having the songs and then punished again for playing them.

Are you talking about the 15% dps penalty when playing paeon or ballad? Because to you that seems like some "balanced" solution so let's cut it down to that.