Ending the Parry debate once and for all

[TouchandFeel]

Two things.

First I'll go over my general thoughts on parry as it is now.
Yes, at the moment it kind of sucks, however I feel this is somewhat by design. Many secondary stats got reworked and rebalanced for the new level cap and the new ilvls for gear. Because of this it seems that in a way it was like a soft reset for some of these like parry. Ignoring the removal of other stats affecting parry and making it a flat mitigation percent, the scaling for parry score to parry chance seems to have been rescaled to fit the projected parry scores that players will eventually have from the more powerful gear we will eventually get later in the 3.X series of updates. So now, at the beginning of the cycle, parry seems to be terrible because we suddenly need so much more to get a decent benefit to parry chance, but later down the road it may even out. This sort of rebalancing is not uncommon in MMO's for attributes that have percentage based effects because if it was a steady linear progression eventually our gear would be giving us so much parry that our parry chances would just keep increasing until we would always be parrying.
So, summation, parry kind of sucks now but it may even out and scale more to what we think we should be doing/getting once we get farther down the gear progression path for 3.X.

Secondly, Ceodore your are being quite self defeating with the way you present your ideas and arguments. You want people to see things your way and agree with you (whether you admit it or not), yet you do so by berating them, insulting them and generally exuding a "I'm better than everyone and you are all idiots" attitude. This tends to be quite off-putting to people and makes them not want to side or associate with you. They may even agree with the ideas you are presenting but will just disagree or dismiss you based on how you come off and make them feel. So if you want people to be more open to your ideas and be more willing to try to see things from your perspective, perhaps you should try utilizing more tact in your execution. Also if you want people to be willing to listen to you, you need to be willing to listen to them and not just try to shut them down.

[Ceodore]

Two things.

First I'll go over my general thoughts on parry as it is now.
Yes, at the moment it kind of sucks, however I feel this is somewhat by design. Many secondary stats got reworked and rebalanced for the new level cap and the new ilvls for gear. Because of this it seems that in a way it was like a soft reset for some of these like parry. Ignoring the removal of other stats affecting parry and making it a flat mitigation percent, the scaling for parry score to parry chance seems to have been rescaled to fit the projected parry scores that players will eventually have from the more powerful gear we will eventually get later in the 3.X series of updates. So now, at the beginning of the cycle, parry seems to be terrible because we suddenly need so much more to get a decent benefit to parry chance, but later down the road it may even out. This sort of rebalancing is not uncommon in MMO's for attributes that have percentage based effects because if it was a steady linear progression eventually our gear would be giving us so much parry that our parry chances would just keep increasing until we would always be parrying.
So, summation, parry kind of sucks now but it may even out and scale more to what we think we should be doing/getting once we get farther down the gear progression path for 3.X.

Seconlyd, Ceodore your are being quite self defeating with the way you present your ideas and arguments. You want people to see things your way and agree with you (whether you admit it or not), yet you do so by berating them, insulting them and generally exuding a "I'm better than everyone and you are all idiots" attitude. This tends to be quite off-putting to people and makes them not want to side or associate with you. They may even agree with the ideas you are presenting but will just disagree or dismiss you based on how you come off and make them feel. So if you want people to be more open to your ideas and be more willing to try to see things from your perspective, perhaps you should try utilizing more tact in your execution. Also if you want people to be willing to listen to you, you need to be willing to listen to them and not just try to shut them down.

First point. Even near the end of 2.x, Parry sucked, so by your definition, the trend is likely to continue through out 3.x and thus Parry will just always suck. Not that I really mind, as I am still okay with it sucking.

Second point. I'm sorry if I don't sugar coat things for all the social justice fluffy bunnies out there who take offense to their stupid ideas being called stupid. If I see an idea that immediately presents flaws, I'm going to call those flaws out instead of holding their hand and saying "You're so right, why can't we all be right like you?"

[Asierid]

But there was no debate. It has always been a garbage stat, and is now even more so due to the flat 20% mitigation.

Only people that believed it was effective are those naive to how it works, and the "DEX is king" 2.0 crowd.

[Faytte]

Abilities that increase parry by an amount (dark dance, warrior tanking stance, etc) are quite fine.

The general returns on parry rating to parry chance are quite low.

The effect of a parry (20% on only certain attacks) is similarly, quite low.

Or in another way:
Parry, when strength increased it to parry well more than 20%, was already not valued in 2.0 where we also only phased mostly physical attacks
You think people will value it now locked to 20% in content like Alexander where many hard hitting attacks or entire phases cannot be parried? All of A4, lazers in A1, etc?

[Hundred]

Parry stacking could be valuable on physical dominant fights except the game makes it impractical by not giving a full set of Parry gear so you'd have to make very real sacrifices for a high Parry rate. As I think I demonstrated with my 734 Parry data. Itemization does not favor Parry

[Cabalabob]

If you need a translation: The reason Parry isn't more potent is because if it was, it would kill the versatility tanks have in choosing Trinkets, Armor, and Weapons. Any increase to this potency should thus remain minor as to not tip the scales of balance so much that versatility is thrown out the window for "perfecting" mitigation.

This is exactly why parry SHOULD be stronger, no other job has "versatility" with their accessories, a monk is not going to use anything but STR accessories, a bard is not going to use anything but DEX accessories, so why should tanks not be in a situation where they won't use anything but VIT accessories? If parry had an offensive aspect to it, tanks wouldn't feel the need to use STR accessories for more damage. Granted they probably still would because the changes to make parry competitive with STR would have to be OP, but it would be a step in the right direction.

[Ceodore]

This is exactly why parry SHOULD be stronger, no other job has "versatility" with their accessories, a monk is not going to use anything but STR accessories, a bard is not going to use anything but DEX accessories, so why should tanks not be in a situation where they won't use anything but VIT accessories? If parry had an offensive aspect to it, tanks wouldn't feel the need to use STR accessories for more damage. Granted they probably still would because the changes to make parry competitive with STR would have to be OP, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Ummm... no... You point out the very flaw within your own idea... IF Parry were to be offensive, for it to be of any use, it would have to be nearly on the same level as Strength. Now you've taken tank trinkets and literally gone the other way with them and made them both tank and DPS trinkets and now tanks are both tanks and DPS and effectively kept us right where we are currently, just more idiot proof because we don't even have to think about our trinkets anymore and make decisions about the situations we are about to face. So what would really be the point?

Assuming we do go down the road to pigeon holing tanks into one kind of accessories, you would want to go down the other route, making Parry drastically more powerful at mitigation. So much so that switching from them would be a bigger loss than what you would gain from switching into STR trinkets. Some people have suggested Parry be 10 times stronger than it is now and making magical damage able to be parried, which would effectively do this very thing. But such a change would mean even Warriors and Dark Knights who enjoy so much DPS would see the numbers they are so proud of plummet.

[Tam_Hawkins]

....

I partyaly agree on your last post, i don't think the discussion on parry is worthless and Needs an end especcialy the threads were they want to figuer out how much value parry actually has, but you are right with something: parry should not be offensive.

As of now parry is the only defensive stat we have but the Problem with it is not that it is bad to go into defensive mode with your tank the Problem is that the stat is way to weak to be actually usefull and current data seems to aggree on that. What paary Needs is probably an improvement not as stron as in your post (yeah i know you just said what others suggested) with making it 10 times stronger as that would lead to beiing able to reach 100% parry within next week (right now it is somewhat seem that parry is somewhere between 0,02 amd 0,035 percent per poin take that times 10 -> 0,2 to 0,35 percent would mean that 450 to 270 Points would be necessary to reach 100% and someone already got 380 Points by now even while using not the pest possible gear)

[Ceodore]

I partyaly agree on your last post, i don't think the discussion on parry is worthless and Needs an end especcialy the threads were they want to figuer out how much value parry actually has, but you are right with something: parry should not be offensive.

As of now parry is the only defensive stat we have but the Problem with it is not that it is bad to go into defensive mode with your tank the Problem is that the stat is way to weak to be actually usefull and current data seems to aggree on that. What paary Needs is probably an improvement not as stron as in your post (yeah i know you just said what others suggested) with making it 10 times stronger as that would lead to beiing able to reach 100% parry within next week (right now it is somewhat seem that parry is somewhere between 0,02 amd 0,035 percent per poin take that times 10 -> 0,2 to 0,35 percent would mean that 450 to 270 Points would be necessary to reach 100% and someone already got 380 Points by now even while using not the pest possible gear)

Yes, finally someone I can find concession with and who understands you only need a small increase, not a massive boost. So, I ask, what might you suggest as a base rate for Parry, and what do you believe each point should be worth, and what is your take on my idea, of having Parry affect both rate and % mitigated and how much should each point of Parry increase when it comes to that?

[Hundred]

Part of the thing to realize is that Parry is going to get higher and higher until their next level cap raise when they revert the system.


Yeah I was able to get +380, but we're in 3.0. Gear is going to increase in 3.05, 3.01, 3.02, etc.
The bigger thing about Parry is that you can't really max Parry gear at the top Ilevel, you have to mix and match ilevels which obviously causes fluctuations in other stats. This is part of why people want to investigate Parry more and get real data.
I had what 22% Parry rate with 734 Parry, 25% will eventually be possible, but the question is well why try and reach that amount of Parry?

If I am being particularly blunt, Square doesn't really make itemization interesting. The real reason not to concern oneself with Parry is because Square doesnt emphasize it. The stat is deliberately weak, hell a damn lot of Vit gear doesn't have Parry which means a lot of Vit gear also doesn't mitigate anything. Hell all Vit Gear really does atm is get you better Stoneskins.