Dark Knight : Just another mitigation tank

[Xenosan]

In spoiler brackets is the 2.1 patch WAR fixes, for that discussion some context may help.

Brutal Swing
Recast time has been reduced from 30 to 20 seconds.

Overpower
Enmity generated has been increased.

Mercy Stroke
Recast time has been reduced from 60 to 40 seconds.

Thrill of Battle
Effect duration has been increased from 10 to 20 seconds.

Storm's Path
The combo bonus now also reduces damage dealt by enemies by 10%.TP cost has been reduced from 90 to 60.

Holmgang
Range has been extended from 3y to 6y. Enemies will now be pulled toward the caster. While under the effect of Holmgang, the caster's HP cannot be reduced to lower than 1. Players can now change the direction they are facing.

Vengeance
Now reduces incoming damage by 30% for 15 seconds.

Storm's Eye
TP cost has been reduced from 70 to 60.

Defiance
While under the effect of Defiance, characters will now gain increased enmity, and HP recovered via curing magic is increased by 20%.

Inner Beast
HP absorption effect has been reduced from 300% to 100%. Now also reduces damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.

Unchained
Recast time has been reduced from 180 to 120 seconds.

Steel Cyclone
Now generates increased enmity.

Wrath
The increased HP recovery effect has been removed.

If DRK/AST are going to remain hybrids - I'm fine with that - but there are some tweaks that both could use to make DARKNESS and CARDS feel less clunky, less like an obstacle, and instead more distinguishable and role-enhancing.

IMO their development falls short due to the lack of a base Class in which JOB abilities build up upon. Rogue to Ninja for example - a solid-unique core with a layer of Ninjitsu thrown on top that further distinguish the Job. Arcanist into SMN/SCH - same deal.

DRK/AST don't have that kind of design. Darkness & Cards aren't vertical mechanics added to a solid core, instead they're horizontal. They serve as gates, restrictions, & limitations a player has to stance-dance or resource manage around to get access to half the role's repertoire.

[Omskahn]

The core argument was DRK doesnt play much more differently than the other existing tanks. The whole life stealing bloodtanking thing was just a solution that people took and tore apart while the OP tried to defend it. A lot of the inferences you make you seem to believe must treated as facts. It is also entirely possible to make your own points without trying to belittle other people in the process. Let's go from here, lets just say the lifestealing is a bad idea for arguments sake, because it really doesnt matter, what next?

Plus, you can ask those questions about PLD/WAR right now, they offer no new insight into DRK or lead into anything gamechanging.

Wait...the old/existing classes need to offer insight into the new one? I don't know if you just conveyed your point poorly or what but this doesn't make any sense. And I don't get at all what you're saying about the questions, all of them have either distinct answers...or quite literally make zero sense to be asked. I'm missing your point.

And the issue with DRK compared almost all other classes is that they usually have full systems that go in making their theme. WAR is quite not just about Wrath/abandon stacks, its also about having high dmg, high helath, self-healing, Aoe dmg, and aoe enmity - as anyone familiar with the class could tell you. I could say similar things about any of the other classes you mentioned. DRK on the other hand doesnt have unique systems, It has an ability that gives other abilities different effects and it uses mana to use many of of those abilities on top of existing skill ideas present in the other tanks. These being the basically ONLY defining traits, with one literally just being resource management, do not give DRK its own theme.

[Waliel]

And please don't just say "blood tank because it worked in a pvp rts"

Relying on lifesteal only gets you killed very, very fast against anything else but creeps and some 1v1 encounters in Dota 2. It doesn't even work in there.

[Duelle]

And the issue with DRK compared almost all other classes is that they usually have full systems that go in making their theme. WAR is quite not just about Wrath/abandon stacks, its also about having high dmg, high health, self-healing, Aoe dmg, and aoe enmity - as anyone familiar with the class could tell you. I could say similar things about any of the other classes you mentioned. DRK on the other hand doesn't have unique systems, It has an ability that gives other abilities different effects and it uses mana to use many of of those abilities on top of existing skill ideas present in the other tanks. These being the basically ONLY defining traits, with one literally just being resource management, do not give DRK its own theme.

I've come to notice the further you stray from straighforward, the weirder the design gets. WAR and PLD by design are straightforward, since PLD has Halone combo + cooldowns, WAR has enmity combos, some cooldowns, two (three if you count Fracture) debuffs to keep on the mob and Inner Beast.

DRK has...abilities that work a certain way except when you pop Dark Arts, lacking inherent mitigation because of how parries work (I'm surprised DRK was not given a "better parries" type trait that either gives them greater benefits from STR or allows them to parry magic or something), HP drains that are pretty much only worth while with DA, and a couple of mitigation things (though I'm of the belief that Dark Mind needs a redesign).

The more I look at it, the more I think that Dark Arts gating stuff the way it does (as in, most abilities are not worthwhile or don't have full effect unless DA is up) is part of the problem. If MP management is supposed to be a thing for DRK, then it should be tied entirely to Darkside and abilities used while under Darkside. Dark Arts looks more like an extra button to push for the sake of having an extra button to push.

There's two ways I can suggest to deal with this. One would be to can Dark Arts and give abilities with Dark Arts effects an additional MP cost when under Darkside. If the MP cost of popping Dark Arts is supposed to be a prohibiting factor, then add that big MP cost to those abilities. In tandem with this, trim the list of abilities with Dark Arts effects; Power Slash for one shouldn't have its enmity tied to Dark Arts.

The second way would be to change Dark Arts into a resource. Instead of something to click to activate, it becomes a buff that gives abilities an extra effect at an additional MP cost. So as soon as you hit Darkside you have the buff Dark Arts. Upon using a skill with a Dark Arts effect, the buff is consumed and is reapplied to you after 10 seconds. This would mimic the current design without the extra button to push, adding fluidity to combat.

As far as DRK having its own style of mitigation, there's also two suggestions I can give. One would be to grab Souleater and nerf/remove the heal, and instead have it prop up a barrier that absorbs damage determined by the damage Souleater dealt (yes, this is a copy of how Death Strike + Blood Shield work in WoW).

The second option would be removing the INT debuff from Delirium and instead have it give you a stacking buff (caps at 3 stacks, call it "Veil of Shadows", and can only be obtained while under Darkside) that does something. Either increases mitigation, or maybe increases defense from armor, or chances to parry; could be anything that adds to survivability. It'd be something that encourages you to keep the buff up (not unlike WAR's relationship with Maim) while being unique to DRK. I'd add it to Souleater but that would warrant nerfing the heal considerably.

[Noxifer]

Their eHP is the same. Plus, WAR has IB, which is effectively an anytime Rampart.

Except for a few things... *hides because it's a side-note from the thread topic*

IB takes five stacks of Wrath to execute, which means two and a half combos (or two combos and either of Berserk/Vengeance, the second of which is already a damage mitigator). This takes 8 GCDs, so about... 12 seconds. This is less than Rampart's 60 seconds, yes (provided all attacks hit and you don't have to dodge away due to AoE or the boss has Invulnerable/Gone moments). It also doesn't last as long as Rampart (only 6 seconds vs 20), so it's trickier to work with, plus it needs a target to execute.

(Example: Catching three balls in A4. PLD can pop Rampart, and it'll last for all of them. WAR can pop IB by whacking a leg before running over to the balls, and IB will most likely have worn off by the time she gets there, and if not it'll be gone after the first ball.)

Add to that that WAR only has one other damage reduction (Vengeance, as mentioned) that effectively works, since Foresight only works on physical damage. Thrill is kind of damage mitigation, through a self-heal plus increased max HP of the same amount. The new Equilibrium is also a self-heal -- or TP heal, depending on stance.
(And, of course, that a PLD can always Hallow up in case of emergency while chasing said balls and taking Ray to the face... Holmgang isn't quite as useful there :p)

It would be awesome if they had different types of tanks that both worked in and of themselves and in comparison to the others. It's been a common observation that PLDs have relatively steady HP levels while a WAR's HP tends to jump up and down like an over-excited chihuahua. While some healers think the latter is fun to heal, others prefer the former since it's less stressful (and because PLDs are less likely to put on STR accessories). I haven't healed much since HW hit, and I haven't tried DRK out more than picking the job up, so I don't know how DRK performs in comparison to that. I've only heard there's a huge number of bad DRK -- which doesn't say much about the job in itself.

Like others have said, though, I can see how it would be difficult to balance different types of tanks without making one of them either too powerful or too weak/squishy.
Instead of 2.0's WAR, would you want to end up with something like TSW's Glance Tanks? (Note: I know it's not really a good comparison, since TSW has a completely different approach to character/class/skills, but...)

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they experimented with a new type, but the problem is that it would most likely take a long time until they figured out how to balance things, and the raging from the players in the mean time would be horrible. Either you'd get every other tank crying out for a nerf because no one wanted their jobs in raids anymore, or you'd get the few people wanting to stick with the new tank job crying for buffs because no one wanted them. I can well see how it'd be easy to just give up and go, "You know, fine. Let's just ease this job closer to the other ones so people can just choose the job they want to play instead of being forced one way or the other while we try to figure this out."

[Nadirah]

What OP wants is WoW's DK.

Which has been either completely broken OP or complete crap the entirety of it's existence.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49998/death-strike


Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 135% Physical damage and heals you for 1.(number is a base, it's affected by stats and weapon damage)
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77513/mastery-blood-shield

Each time you heal yourself with Death Strike while in Blood Presence, you gain 16% of the amount healed as a Physical damage absorption shield.

So you hit like a truck, heal yourself every time you do, and gain an absorption shield every time you heal yourself with it. It's basically a WAR with Adlo attached to their main attack.

[Rhysati]

this is not a tank

Everquest 1 and 2 would like to have a word with you.

[Omskahn]

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they experimented with a new type, but the problem is that it would most likely take a long time until they figured out how to balance things, and the raging from the players in the mean time would be horrible.

I agree with this. My question then is why bother make a new tank if it really isn't going to bring anything new? It gives people another option to play, and with more option the tank pool in the game will undeniably increase. Was this all they hoped to achieve though i wonder?

Currently, there isn't any reason to bring a DRK in a party unless you just want to. This might be enough for some ppl, but I feel it just leaves it being less special than it could be. So i guess i'm more disappointed than upset.

[Nadirah]

-Why should I pick DRK?
-What can it do that the others can\\'t?
-What was the point of this additional tank of it seems so similar to the other 2?
-What can be changed about it so it can have its own identity?

This is a problem.

You dont' want one tank doing something others can't. It leads to cherry picking when it comes to encounters. There's a reason why everyone's got access to what was previously a whm trait, Proshell.

They tried the different types of tank thing in WoW even. You ended up taking X and/or Y, and not Z because Z wasn't useful enough in enough situations to warrant it.

Even more annoying now because there's three tank jobs.. You just basically told everyone's static "hey guys, yeah, level all three of your tank jobs beacuse we're gonna need you to switch back and forth all the time.

It's annoying. Stahp.

[Duelle]

They tried the different types of tank thing in WoW even. You ended up taking X and/or Y, and not Z because Z wasn't useful enough in enough situations to warrant it.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I recall tanks still having flavor even after blizz went down the idiotic "everyone is an active mitigation tank because we liked how it turned out on Death Knights" route. Sure, prot warriors and bear druids weren't heavily represented when placed next to prot paladins and blood DKs, but each at least had something to help one stand out from the other aside from the tier sets.

Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 135% Physical damage and heals you for 1.(number is a base, it's affected by stats and weapon damage)
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77513/mastery-blood-shield

Each time you heal yourself with Death Strike while in Blood Presence, you gain 16% of the amount healed as a Physical damage absorption shield.

So you hit like a truck, heal yourself every time you do, and gain an absorption shield every time you heal yourself with it. It's basically a WAR with Adlo attached to their main attack.

I think the most obvious adaptation of this ability would be to get rid of the heal. The shield is there to help make up for the lack of a shield (though this is because parry, block and dodge count towards overall mitigation in WoW). If DRK were given this separate from Souleater but still requiring Dark Arts, the DRK has the choice between a damage shield and the self heal. At least on paper.