Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

[Nestama]

So long as it's not Bismarck EX, as that fight is very caster unfriendly (unless you're a SMN).

[Sylve]

I no longer understand the BRD community here on Forums. (The vocal annoying ones, not the ones playing in the game and using WM properly)

BRDs have for the longest time been the absolute weakest DPS Job. Raiders only took BRDs on cutting edge content because of the Ballad/Paeon safety net and boosting the BLMs for a bit with Foes.

The only advantage of the BRD over the BLM and SMN was simple, Instant weaponskills. It simply allowed the Bard to keep doing its mediocre damage while moving while the other Ranged Jobs had to lose most if not all of theirs.
Typically, Instant skills have a drawback, generally that's lower damage or high cost. For Melee, that's Range.

Now combine the damage of a Dragoon with the range of a Black Mage, for example.
That's what the Bard effectively is if it had the same DPS as Melee due to having Instant Weaponskills AND Black Mage Range.

But now you have Bards wanting to do the same damage as their ranged counterparts. How do you do that without making Bards the best DPS in the game?
The answer is is simple, meet halfway and make it a toggle.
We got a cast time to inhibit the DPS-on-the-run style that was limiting the Bards damage in the past.
However, those casts are very short. At 1.5 seconds (2.5 recast), Its just enough of a cast time to force us to stop to do Damage but not so long that we're rooted in place do any damage like a Black Mage (2.5/2.5 cast/recast).

We can now trade the hit and run for maximum DPS.
We can go into nuke mode and sit still, risking as much as a Summoner but can hit and run when required, but not at maximum damage.

It was the perfect solution. All that's left is for the Bards to get used to it, understand why it is the way it is and then just play the game.

[Felessan]

Umm. Excuse me? I absolutely have that right. And what you're talking about isn't "skill level" it's intentionally playing subpar. I can deal with low skill level.

Actually WM can be attributed into the same category of low skill. Because to actually get benefit from it - you need to train a bit, which is the same as training overall skill level.
On other hands it really depends on type of content and expected skill/efforts from party members. If it is a raid - it is one story, if it is a dungeon party - it is another story.WM is less comfortable way of playing and why I should play with it if I can outdps 2/3 dd in dungeons even without it? You can't really blame bard for not put extra efforts when most casual dps don't want to put their efforts to learn their job just a little.

A Bard not using it gets their auto-attacks, which effectively makes up for the damage loss

No, autoattack does not makes up for new minuet.

[Wizarus]

SNIP

Nope, Bard primary role is DPS, as shown by the DPS marker next to their name. Any Bard not optimizing DPS because "they don't have to" needs to be immediately kicked.

[Malevicton]

Actually WM can be attributed into the same category of low skill.

It can be if the person just doesn't understand how it works. The context of the person I was replying too was not that, though. They understood how it works but just refuse to use it because "playstyle". Someone not understanding how it works I can deal with. Someone intentionally pulling lower dps and holding back the group is not lack of skill, it's lack of empathy towards your fellow players.

[Nestama]

@Wizarus
A DPS as well as a support Job. If you're not going to use MP, TP or Foe's when requested (I've had BRD's ignore my requests for Foe's, which I found odd as it does nothing to their DPS. I use it whenever I can in dungeons), then you're not really a Bard. Definitely an Archer, though.

[Belhi]

Can we all stop dancing around the obvious here? Movement kills DPS with Wanderer's Minuet active. A Bard not using it gets their auto-attacks, which effectively makes up for the damage loss, full mobility AND has the benefit of having a larger window to use abilities inbetween skills.

Using abilities with Wanderer's Minuet on can actually slow down DPS. Since the best time to use abilities is in-between skills on most classes, you have a much smaller window for using them in Wanderer's Minuet. In many cases I find that using the skill tends to inch past the casting time since there's a small animation delay after using any ability before you can cast.

This doesn't occur without WM on because we have the full GCD as our abilities window.

If someone wants to actually run some proper numbers with Wanderer's Minuet versus non-Minuet combat, then maybe it'll kill the debate flat. And I mean an actual, impartial comparison. Not one heavily weighted to convince themselves that they're right. I'm not going to argue that Wanderer's Minuet isn't stronger when you're standing still, but in an actual combat situation I question it's validity.

I haven't tested it my self but several of the BRDs in my FC say that they have found the numbers show that while stationary WM does higher damage. I haven't reached max level yet so I've not bothered testing the numbers myself. It certainly seems particularly potent with AoEs.

[Verius_Nox]

Because I didn't roll and main a bard to have the playstyle completely change in the expansion. I'll see if it's now at least useable after the fixes, but I'm primarily going to continue playing the way I want. Thanks.

Everything is subject to change in an MMO. Get over it.

So long as it's not Bismarck EX, as that fight is very caster unfriendly (unless you're a SMN).

That fight is actually pretty easy as a caster if you find the good spots to stand in, and no one crowds around you.

[Nestama]

That fight is actually pretty easy as a caster if you find the good spots to stand in, and no one crowds around you.

It's mostly the second phase that frustrated me as BLM. Those damn tornadoes seemed to have a BLM seeking device and would casually whirl their way over towards me (I once chose to kill my DPS entirely just to reposition and avoid a tornado. It changed course, slowly made its way through the melee DPS on Green snake and slowly made its way to my new position. Either I am incredibly unlucky, or tornadoes are programmed to hate BLM's). I got my clear as SMN because I wasn't having fun as BLM on Bismarck. I hear Ravana EX is a lot kinder and Floor 1, 3 and 4 have been fine (but SE should really make the Living Liquids tornado form untargetable).

[Verius_Nox]

It's mostly the second phase that frustrated me as BLM. Those damn tornadoes seemed to have a BLM seeking device and would casually whirl their way over towards me (I once chose to kill my DPS entirely just to reposition and avoid a tornado. It changed course, slowly made its way through the melee DPS on Green snake and slowly made its way to my new position. Either I am incredibly unlucky, or tornadoes are programmed to hate BLM's). I got my clear as SMN because I wasn't having fun as BLM on Bismarck. I hear Ravana EX is a lot kinder and Floor 1, 3 and 4 have been fine (but SE should really make the Living Liquids tornado form untargetable).

There's 2 spots where the tornados never go during that second phase.



The two little ovals is about the area where they'll never run to you. Give it a bit of a trial and error, and you'll find that sweet spot. I've cleared Bismarck Ex as BLM.