Bard - they broke my job

[Aikaal]

And every time someone posts misleading info people that don't play the class come and defend it as hard evidence, disregarding facts as bitching.

I don't play the job but I can tell that saying it's because there's 2 mobs the Bard can top DPS like that is a bull load of crap. It applies to everybody. It would change nothing if it was 1 target, this Bard would still be high DPS.

[kalasnikov]

This Just proves you know NOTHING about bards. Why is it always black mages with biggest issues with bards? With 2 target up as already been stated, blood letter procs are insane, and if targets are in close proximity, you make it even more insane with rain of death (100 times targets). People complaining bards having good dps in SUPER casual raids in fights with multiple targets and fast burst are just sad.

[Sen_Terrechant]

And every time someone posts misleading info people that don't play the class come and defend it as hard evidence, disregarding facts as bitching.

What misleading info? A bard had a good parse in a fight with a dragoon that had multiple targets to attack. Thats not misleading, but once again you try and shy away from real evidence that yes- bard is in a good spot right now (If you are a good player.. which im guessing...)

Many jobs can take advantage of that AoE, infact all of them can inflate their damage. Even if it was a single target fight the bard WOULD STILL BE DOING GOOD DAMAGE. Want to know why i know that? I play with Bards that are good at what they do.

At this point its a L2P issue.

[KaelDrakkal]

I know that there is a group of people saying that the DPS is broken, but that isn't the actual issue. BRD feels unwieldy and poorly designed when using WM. The class, when not in WM, consists of weaving the many off GCD abilities available in between GCD. When using WM, you end up staring at a bunch of abilities you can't weave in because the casting cuts into off gcd time by half. It's incredibly jarring to switch into and simply feels like bad mechanics. Sure you can make it work, but for many it simply isn't fun. Bards go from hitting 1.5x as many keys as other dps to slowing to a crawl comparatively.

[Snowaeth]

I don't play the job but I can tell that saying it's because there's 2 mobs the Bard can top DPS like that is a bull load of crap. It applies to everybody. It would change nothing if it was 1 target, this Bard would still be high DPS.

You'r ignoring the picture to enforce your argument though.

Lets look at which class had the highest initial burst pre 3.0? That's right bard.
Now they've lost some of that, but their initial burst is still damn high.

Now lets look at who scales the best from buff at the start of a fight because they got so many buffs to stack with other party members buffs?
That's right it's the bard.
That crit rate of 36% dragoon crit buff coming up for 20sec of that 2:40 sec parse, guess who scales insanely well with crit? That's right bard.

2:40 clear time, guess who starts to drop off the hardest beyond the 2min+ mark?
That's right bard.

Saying there are two targets and everyone would make use of that it's silly, because who has one of the best scaling from multi targeting? (Beyond the SMN, but short kill time actually works against SMN)
That's right bard scales amazingly well from multi dotting and even harder because of bonus crit from DRG on short parse.

Let lone as posted above me, the actual problem is the way bard has to do this damage in the first place.

[Aikaal]

SNip.

Your argument is invalid.

Everybody scales from Battle Litany.

Black Mage burst higher than Bards. (I have bursted for 2379 DPS on a dummy with no party, just myself)

Everybody scales extremely high from stacking buffs. BLM with Voiced Foe, RS, Potion, TA, Battle Litany, Leylines, Enochian and Selene goes from 1x damage to 1.6632. They also gain 18% Attack speed from Leylines and Fey Winds and they get 15% Crit. If you look at the base 280 Potency from F4. It goes to 504 with Astral Fire III. With 1.6632 multiplier, it goes to 838.2528 Potency per F4. I cast 6 of those also and I did not mention that Potion I use that is multiplied by everything.

You scale well with Crit and that's good for your job. Saying that SMN lose from short fights is also invalid. Summoners have the biggest AoE arsenal in the game right now. Bane, Painflare, Deathflare, Shadowflare, Miasma II.

If Demolish is on both targets, Rockbreaker from Monks is better than Snap Punch and is viable because it's 2 minutes and 40 seconds.

You are trying to find flaws where there is not. If a Bard can do as much damage than another job in a fight, regardless 1 or 2 mobs, the job is not broken.

*edits*

Out of curiosity, do you have any maths or theorycraft to proof that Bard is actually behind Machinists and need to be fixed? If you don't, that's like 3 strikes friend.

[kalasnikov]

Snip

Indeed. For me (and many others) the freedom of movement was the big thing i loved about bard, loved it while clearing coils and savages. Loved it In dungeons, loved it everywhere. In dummies bard was the lowest dps, but it didnt matter as bard was fun and useful class to play. Adding minuet is literally a death sentence to the class and playstyle we all loved. Blackmages still cast, melees still move freely, but bards get bolted to the ground with cast times taking away the beauty of the bard. Machinist was built for that way of gameplay with all the procs and ammo to give back the mobility against bards 20% on 1 skill. Bard is not fun anymore. Minuet is bad design , and no bloody "high dps" parse wont change it. If i wanted to cast, i would have swap to black mage.

[Snowaeth]

Your argument is invalid.

Everybody scales from Battle Litany.

Black Mage burst higher than Bards. (I have bursted for 2379 DPS on a dummy with no party, just myself)

Everybody scales extremely high from stacking buffs. BLM with Voiced Foe, RS, Potion, TA, Battle Litany, Leylines, Enochian and Selene goes from 1x damage to 1.6632. They also gain 18% Attack speed from Leylines and Fey Winds and they get 15% Crit. If you look at the base 280 Potency from F4. It goes to 504 with Astral Fire III. With 1.6632 multiplier, it goes to 838.2528 Potency per F4. I cast 6 of those also and I did not mention that Potion I use that is multiplied by everything.

You scale well with Crit and that's good for your job. Saying that SMN lose from short fights is also invalid. Summoners have the biggest AoE arsenal in the game right now. Bane, Painflare, Deathflare, Shadowflare, Miasma II.

If Demolish is on both targets, Rockbreaker from Monks is better than Snap Punch and is viable because it's 2 minutes and 40 seconds.

You are trying to find flaws where there is not. If a Bard can do as much damage than another job in a fight, regardless 1 or 2 mobs, the job is not broken.

To begin with I was discussing how the damage was compared to the other dps.
Second there was no blackmage in there and I was pointing out highest burst pre 3.0 if you read I point out it dropped now but it is still very high burst.
Third pointing out they managed to do good damage doesn't keep in account how the job actually plays, rather that it's possible to do highly obnoxious things to put out good numbers so numbers alone don't mean a job is fine.

Some bonus points, someone scaling from crit doesn't equal scaling well from crit. Bard gains a free OGCD attack every time they crit with a dot, having two targets with 2 dots on each with increased crit rate is 4x scaling on dots sure other jobs get that too, but bard scales another 4 times because of proccing bloodletters more that's a different tier of scaling compared to any other job.

Turn 10 back in the day bard could be highest dps easily during the add phase unless (you were doing the aoe strat for BLM/SMN by bane/flare/holy) why? Because Bards scale so well on multi mob fights.
That part did not change.

The part where bard had their playstyle thrown around however and feels like shit even though you can outpud numbers which this point is about require perfect settings to be on par with others where they should be due to playstyle change is.

[Aikaal]

Snip

BLM was still bursting for 1.1k pre 3.0 I've seen bards at 1k+ but yeah. That's debatable.

That's unfortunate there was no BLM because I would have pummeled that parse

So you are saying that a stat is better for your Job. How does this proof that Bards are broken?

In T10, if you were in farm content, you were smart to multi DoT. This remind me how I was using Chaos Trust on my Dragoon on two of them then use Elusive jump to go on the other pack to Chaos Trust.

The only reason why you feel Bard is bad is because they lost their full-time mobility. This means if you have to move, you have to put Wanderer's Minuet away as SE intended to make this skill work. This means you won't have 100% up time WM and it's fine to stance dance that way, it will split the average and good bards.

You have ignored my last question. Do you have theorycraft behind all your claims how Bard is a broken job and needs help? I would actually like to have information since I am thinking of leveling Bard. No whine, actual information.

[Snowaeth]

BLM was still bursting for 1.1k pre 3.0 I've seen bards at 1k+ but yeah. That's debatable.

That's unfortunate there was no BLM because I would have pummeled that parse

So you are saying that a stat is better for your Job. How does this proof that Bards are broken?

In T10, if you were in farm content, you were smart to multi DoT. This remind me how I was using Chaos Trust on my Dragoon on two of them then use Elusive jump to go on the other pack to Chaos Trust.

The only reason why you feel Bard is bad is because they lost their full-time mobility. This means if you have to move, you have to put Wanderer's Minuet away as SE intended to make this skill work. This means you won't have 100% up time WM and it's fine to stance dance that way, it will split the average and good bards.

You have ignored my last question. Do you have theorycraft behind all your claims how Bard is a broken job and needs help? I would actually like to have information since I am thinking of leveling Bard. No whine, actual information.

I've bursted 1,1k+ pre 3.0 too with the normal bard opener so lets leave that as undecided.

About the stat being better for bards. It's the scaling that multiplies the more crit + targets you have.
Lets look at other jobs 1 target is worth 1 damage, with crit its 1,5 then two targets worth 2 damage and with crit 3 but for bard every of those targets add that basic damage and then increase your bloodletter procs by another multiplier (think black mage thunder procs, but at a much better rate).
I wasn not pointing out that this makes the bard broken, I was pointing out that it makes Alex T1 an amazing bard fight to boost the numbers more so than the other jobs, making the bard numbers look better than they actually are on most fights.

As for my issues with bard, it's not actually the loss of mobility. It's the implementation of how this is done. 11 OGCD's + one resetting non stop, require for a rotation that feels very clunky and destroys the flow of how bard was played before.
The change of playstyle is not something I'm a fan of, but it's not something I can't get used to, I can imagine a lot of bards hating it much more than I do though because it's a drastic change compared to non WM play which basically isn't building on top of the class but changing the class.

Sorry I didn't ignore your last question you edited that in while I was already writing a reply.

The bard needs help with the flow of the skills, not the damage, not mobility (although other bards would disagree even more because they strongly feel that they'r missing what they signed for in the loss of mobility).
I am also hating on the playstyle change, especially because the main 50+ skills are basically a copy paste from MCH which lowers the option of choice rather than increases it.

So for theory crafting It takes about 1,5s to cast a skill. Every 12 seconds you get Empyrean Arrow which is OGCD, but has a 1,5ish cast time too. Then you got a non stop flow of Bloodletter which can proc again while you'r casting.
What does this mean? Bloodletter > Heavy Shot because during heavy shot cast Bloodletter can proc. Now lets say I'm casting Heavy Shot then Bloodletter that's all the room I have for OGCD's. Yet I got a ton of buffs lined up and bloodletter resetting on top and there's Empyrean Arrow coming off cooldown too. There is no room to fit skills properly without cutting into GCD's.

That's not the end of it though. There's Flaming arrow, which is a very underrated skill, but ends up doing a higher % of damage than most bards realize. This skill is placed on the floor, but can't be pre queued before a cast finishes, so by the time your cast finishes and you get to queue it up you still need to place it on the floor, pretty much guaranteeing to cut a little into your GCD.

Lets look at the new Barrage on the side too, not even going into numbers on how exactly it's nerfed (especially vs quad barrage) but lets look at how it is used now. You would always want to use this before the strongest weaponskill for obvious reasons. The strongest weapon skill is Empyreal Arrow. Empyreal Arrow is already OGCD. I just explained how there is only room for 1 OGCD in normal cases. But before you do EMP arrow with Barrage you need to basically do 2 where EMP arrow also has a cast time which basically double cuts into your GCD unless you had a Straight Shot proc (Think Fire3 proc pre3.0 which is 20% chance per Heavy Shot used think Fire 1) then in that time Bloodletter most likely has procce'd which goes before HS because it can proc again during HS cast which means you delay your GCD even more.

It's not me whining about mobility. Not even whining about damage potential here although from what I just wrote, I am of the opinion that if we'r not going to get changes the damage gain from WM needs to be higher to compensate for a playstyle like this.

As for MCH vs BRD, MCH straight up parse higher on dummy and dummy like bosses than any BRD I have seen and asked during the same time of progression of the classes starting from hitting 60 up to now. I would love to show you numbers but I do not save those things so that would require quite a lot of effort to look them up for you again and I don't like you enough to put even more effort than I am already doing in this reply, but even here numbers can easily be tweaked by changing potencies up or down a little bit. What bard needs is not a numbers change, it needs to fix the mess that is our OGCD's in WM.

As to how to fix it, casting OGCD's during casts would go a long way (obviously tweaking numbers accordingly afterward).

Something I'd personally love is having WM not be a copy of Gauss Barrel and instead of giving cast times make our skills 3 or 5 yalm range to play as a melee during the song uptime.
Because on a bard being a melee but having no cast time wouldn't actually break the skill flow. Where MCH kit was already made to work with the class (MCH does need a couple QoL changes too tho).