Thoughts from a 60 AST & 60 WHM

[Risvertasashi]

A theorycrafter of reddit did what I couldn't-- put some numbers to the MP usage thing. The original post in the link below includes charts and a more detailed breakdown but I'll directly quote this highlight:

AST has a hard time recovering MP during low damage. At a 250-potency pace (about 6 Cures and 3 Regens per minute - or 15 Benefics in Noct), WHM is recovering MP twice as fast.

Under heavy damage using Benefic II is on par with playing WHM badly. AST should focus on finding ways to avoid Benefic II - including pawning that responsibility off on their co-healer - and just spam the spam out of Bene I until Dignity is up.

AST needs all the MP-saving tricks you can manage.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ain_astwhmsch/

[Rewind]

Diu is already a copy of WHM and Noct is a copy of SCH. WHM heals are reactive and SCH is proactive. Reactive is when you need more healing power while proactive gives you more time to dps and play with cards.

Diurnal Sect is NOT a copy of WHM. AST simply are not as powerful as WHM and were never intended to "replace WHM" or "replace SCH"

AST is about sustaining the raid, WHM is reactive and SCH is proactive.

Nocturnal Sect needs a rework because it falls in none of those categories.

Also there have been comments about mana regen - As you become more comfortable with the class mana is less of an issue. WHM DO have better mana due to the addition of assize but AST mana regen is no more difficult to manage than WHM was in 2.0. Yes, the mana management is difficult at the lower levels but at full gear 60 there are no issues if you are utilising all your skills in Diurnal stance.

[Heinel]

Also there have been comments about mana regen - As you become more comfortable with the class mana is less of an issue. WHM DO have better mana due to the addition of assize but AST mana regen is no more difficult to manage than WHM was in 2.0. Yes, the mana management is difficult at the lower levels but at full gear 60 there are no issues if you are utilising all your skills in Diurnal stance.

MP management of 2.0 WHM is based almost entirely on conservation and the refresh ability really only helps a little. To say that AST is similar to WHM, even the 2.0 one, is incorrect. Having to spend 2k MP on 2 Helios to cover what a WHM can do with 1 Divine Seal Medica II is the very definition of inefficient. Sure, you'll not run into issues if you just let the other healer to take the disaster control role, but what does it say about your role? This is a team game. You must look beyond your own personal bubble and look at what the party needs.

[Rewind]

MP management of 2.0 WHM is based almost entirely on conservation and the refresh ability really only helps a little. To say that AST is similar to WHM, even the 2.0 one, is incorrect. Having to spend 2k MP on 2 Helios to cover what a WHM can do with 1 Divine Seal Medica II is the very definition of inefficient. Sure, you'll not run into issues if you just let the other healer to take the disaster control role, but what does it say about your role? This is a team game. You must look beyond your own personal bubble and look at what the party needs.

On the contrary you support my original point which you didn't quote.

An AST simply is not meant to be spamming Helios to top the raid. It's like asking a SCH to top the raid with succor on ADS turn 2 back in 2.0. Of course you'll oom if you play inefficiently.

Some part of the definition of team work is playing the best to your ability whilst working together. AST is very strong in managing the tanks, especially with synastry ready, through AOE damage whilst a WHM tops the raid. An AST is very strong at sustaining the raid with a constantly rolling aspected helios in diurnal stance (which is low enough potency to not have issues with enmity) and has enough power to top the raid, together, with a decent SCH which has been given greater utility to react to damage.

[Heinel]

snip

You basically just claimed that ASTs are meant to be impotent. This reaffirms my conclusion. You believe that the other healer should be carrying the group while the AST... eh.. put up some regen? Synastry, while nice on paper, actually has the same function as the fairy's Embrace, namely to allow you to heal 2 people at once. The difference is that the fairy is for the most part permanent, while Synastry has a cooldown and is less flexible in terms of who you want to be the focus target. A WHM also does not need help in sustaining the raid, as their abilities are more efficient to begin with. I don't know why enmity is mentioned here as it just looks like someone grasping at straws. SCH also don't pull aggro, even as they are casting 2 heals at once and having DoTs ticking, is that supposed to be some kind of amazing benefit?

[Rewind]

You basically just claimed that ASTs are meant to be impotent.

I'm not saying that at all. AST is it's own unique class, and there will be some players that enjoy the role and others who don't. Just because it doesn't meet your requirements to dish out the same HPS as WHM or allow for the same type of mitigation SCH does is silly. Creating a carbon copy of a class is quite redundant and I don' think the dev team intended AST to work in that way. I think people are jumping the gun too quickly and dismissing its function and role. I've agreed previously in this thread that there are some aspects of AST that need reworking but the class isn't drastically unplayable as others make out.

Yes, it's a bit more work, and yes, you have to be more conscious of your utility and mana but it might actually challenge people to play better and pay more attention.

If you're pushing for savage content, and your most logical step is to take WHM/SCH for it to run smoothly then that's fine. If you aren't in a rush for server first its most likely that a good pair of healers can take whatever class they like and still succeed.

[Heinel]

I'm not saying that at all.

But here you just said it again. While I agree that the game does not need another WHM or SCH, I think I'm justified in believing that AST does need something worthwhile that sets it apart. Currently, people cannot come up with a reason to justify giving up a robust healer for AST (just because it's pretty and feels nice, is not enough), and you have so far not provided any reason to believe otherwise.

[SuzakuCMX]

If you're pushing for savage content, and your most logical step is to take WHM/SCH for it to run smoothly then that's fine. If you aren't in a rush for server first its most likely that a good pair of healers can take whatever class they like and still succeed.

The problem is that SCH/WHM will be the most optimal pair and subbing in an AST for either of those healers will make Savage Alex much harder. All classes should be balanced for progression raids regardless of how fun or not fun they are. MCH/BRD cleared content just fine and yet were still being left out of PF groups for RavEx and BisEx. AST is next in line for that once Alex Savage comes out because its healing just is not robust enough to justify taking it along right now. If you're fine with not doing Savage Alex on AST, that's fine and good for you. But you don't get to just throw everyone else under the bus for that.

[Rewind]

I think I'm justified in believing that AST does need something worthwhile that sets it apart. otherwise.

AST offers players the ability to heal through another play style - of course you are justified in believing AST needs something worthwhile to set it apart - As mentioned before I think AST would really benefit from some channelling chain heal spells to enhance its uniqueness and utility, in addition to card changes and some minor ability adjustments to actually make them effective.

My comment was originally just addressing the fact you mentioned the mana cost of helios making it seem like AST is responsible for topping the raid in such a way. The class hasn't been built to be a carbon copy white mage and healing as AST in such a way is just inefficient. That doesn't automatically mean that the way it is built now is correct or strong but for the time being people need to work with what they are given and wait for SE to address concerns.

If you're fine with not doing Savage Alex on AST, that's fine and good for you. But you don't get to just throw everyone else under the bus for that.

We don't know what composition will be best for savage. Maybe it will be dual SCH, maybe it will be double PLD tank, maybe it needs to be a fully ranged DPS party. Composition is not always going to be prefect and there are always going to be better classes to take to maximize DPS/Tank CDs/Healing Abilities. People can't take it personally if someone excludes something from a DF. Find a good group of people that actually consider the player behind the toon rather than the misconception that a class is "better than another". There are bad players on 'well built' classes too.

It doesn't mean good players on other classes can't achieve the same result.

[SuzakuCMX]

We don't know what composition will be best for savage.

We do know that AST likely won't fit in there since it is behind SCH/WHM in heal-to-mana efficiency, potencies, and tools to mitigate damage in every step.

Maybe it will be dual SCH, maybe it will be double PLD tank

Dual SCH likely won't work because shields don't stack and they don't have good enough AoE in most cases to top up the party. Dual-PLD might work. Who knows.

maybe it needs to be a fully ranged DPS party.

You joke about this, but 1.0 horror flashbacks....

Composition is not always going to be prefect and there are always going to be better classes to take to maximize DPS/Tank CDs/Healing Abilities.

Unless you're an AST, because you flat out lack any benefit to the party that SCH/WHM can't provide or do better. SCH and WHM both have enough secondary healing (Regen and Fairy/Adlo Crits) to be able to DPS and reach 300-400 DPS on top of Selene buffs. AST has to increase party's overall DPS by 300-400 to beat that, which they probably can't because of card RNG and being unable to sustain tanks for long enough to Cleric Stance vs. SCH who can still heal the tank while in Cleric Stance via Fairy, can E4E and Supervirus, Adlo Crit, etc. AST just can't compare to the healing of either SCH or WHM nor can it compare to the DPS increase you get from being able to DPS as those classes. WHM can Regen/Medica II/Stoneskin/E4E/Supervirus the tank and start DPSing in Cleric, and if either SCH or WHM let the tank get low because of their DPSing they have several abilities to recover, whereas AST has....Essential Dignity which probably won't help all that much.

People can't take it personally if someone excludes something from a DF.

Um, what? I shouldn't take it personally that my class is perceived as so bad that I can't actually do content without having to round up 8 people? So SE should just never balance classes?

Find a good group of people that actually consider the player behind the toon rather than the misconception that a class is "better than another".

Except anything you do on AST you will have done 3x better on WHM/SCH with much more ease.

There are bad players on 'well built' classes too.

Yes but that's the player's fault and not bad balancing's fault, and they will get kicked from the group whereas a bad class won't even be let into the content in most cases.

AST offers players the ability to heal through another play style

Right now it heals exactly the same as a WHM except with less tools and worse efficiency. Its playstyle is a pared down version, plus cards.

My comment was originally just addressing the fact you mentioned the mana cost of helios making it seem like AST is responsible for topping the raid in such a way.

AST is a healer. They were supposed to be designed to fill the role of either SCH or WHM, meaning they should be able to top up a raid after AoE damage. They can't.

The class hasn't been built to be a carbon copy white mage and healing as AST in such a way is just inefficient.

What are you talking about? Benefic/Benefic II are exact copies of Cure I/Cure II except they have less potency. Di Benefic is almost exactly the same as Regen except it has initial potency, but it's overall less efficient still. And Noct AST is just plain bad because while Benefic/Benefic II are more efficient, Noct Benefic and Collective Unconsciousness are complete trash while Noct Helios is just as bad as Succor was for doing anything.

That doesn't automatically mean that the way it is built now is correct or strong but for the time being people need to work with what they are given and wait for SE to address concerns.

So what you're saying is "AST healing is fine don't change it but that doesn't mean it's fine or strong, just lrn2play your class and wait for SE to buff it?" What was the point of even coming into this thread for you?