o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[syntaxlies]

What exactly do you think these changes will do to make crafting suck less? Or rather what exactly is it about crafting right now that makes you feel that it sucks?

Because with the changes this thread refers to, the only thing that will change are the items you have to make over and over.

The minigame doesn't change and the rate of progression doesn't change... What do you envision these changes are going to do? Because most of us realize the changes brought up in this thread are only going to change the items you grind for skill.

It's really hard not to reach the conclusion that you have no real understanding about what you dislike about crafting and just hear "CHANGE!" and start salivating.

what do you think they'll ruin. I stopped crafting because every time you go to make something there are 100 road blocks in the way. Try to make a rank 20 lth item that requires rank 30 lth parts.you have to buy parts from a higher rank lth crafter to make something you should be able to make alone(example: the use of raptor sinew cords in low lvl recipes).not everyone has 10 mules that they can store a billion mats on. the streamlining is whats gonna make it better for "me", you can argue all you want but that's how i feel and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Ferth]

what do you think they'll ruin. I stopped crafting because every time you go to make something there are 100 road blocks in the way. Try to make a rank 20 lth item that requires rank 30 lth parts.you have to buy parts from a higher rank lth crafter to make something you should be able to make alone(example: the use of raptor sinew cords in low lvl recipes).not everyone has 10 mules that they can store a billion mats on. the streamlining is whats gonna make it better for "me", you can argue all you want but that's how i feel and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Those are the same issues that almost everyone is glad they are changing. Have you read any of the posts in this thread? Or did you read the title, figure people were against any and all changes being implemented and decided you needed to chime in that these changes are all great?

I have not heard anyone argue in favor of the wonky skill requirements on certain parts. I barely play right now because I largely don't enjoy it. The things that are actively preventing me from crafting or for ranking up a combat class are not even remotely being addressed in these changes.

These changes will not make more people suddenly craft hempen doublets even though any idiot could do it with 5 minutes of effort. Because there will still be no reason from the standpoint of gaining skill, and largely no reason from a demand perspective either because even with the new materia system no one is going to wear a rank 6 shirt for longer than a day. Hell probably not even longer than an hour, unless through some totally bizarre insight SE makes it's possible materia crazy good.

The argument is not whether they should change things or not change things. The argument is about the degree to which things should be changed.

You need to stop treating this discussion like everyone who disagrees with your sentiment of all the changes being great or perfect or good as somehow being of the standpoint that all change is then bad.

We want the crafting system to change too... We just still want the aspects we enjoy in crafting to still bear relevance.

You are rank 20 in leather so even with the roadblocks you've come across you still haven't reach the biggest road black, the totally skewed rate of progression... Remember when your GLA hit rank 32 and you went from needing 38,000 sp for the next rank to needing 45,000? That's the same thing that happens to crafters. Only you don't have a leve exploit or parties or raids to get you to your next rank quicker... You've got a shitload of junk to craft. Whether that junk is going to be toad leather straps or toad leather harnesses... you're still gonna have to craft a bloody lot of them.

And unless the rate of spiritbind is stupidly fast, or the success chance for multiple materia bindings is stupidly low you still won't have a proper market for everything you will need to make to continue to gain rank in your craft.

They can streamline the process. I think the majority of us want that. But this isn't a streamlining... this is a gutting.

[Sorel]

They can streamline the process. I think the majority of us want that. But this isn't a streamlining... this is a gutting.

Ferth, I know you as rational poster who is not prone to exaggeration. I weigh the opinions in your posts more heavily than I do most others.

So when you say that these changes are gutting the crafting system. It makes me take pause.

The word gutting has two meanings that are applicable to this discussion.

gutting

1. Removing or destroying completely the internal parts of (a building or other structure).
2. Removing or extracting the most important parts of (something) in a damaging or destructive manner.

So I have to ask ... do you consider parts & nuggets the most important parts of the crafting system? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking an honest question.

[Physic]

Ferth, I know you as rational poster who is not prone to exaggeration. I weigh the opinions in your posts more heavily than I do most others.

So when you say that these changes are gutting the crafting system. It makes me take pause.

The word gutting has two meanings that are applicable to this discussion.

gutting

1. Removing or destroying completely the internal parts of (a building or other structure).
2. Removing or extracting the most important parts of (something) in a damaging or destructive manner.

So I have to ask ... do you consider parts & nuggets the most important parts of the crafting system? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking an honest question.

its more like this, you have a car, that runs slow, the engine doesnt work well, and requires a lot more gas, you take it to the mechanic, and he says, i dont like your cooling system so then he says hes wants to complete remove it and add an all new cooling system.

The cooling system wasnt the problem, and changing it can effect the overall performance of your car, causing it to break down rapidly, now its possible, that his new cooling system may end up better than your old one, but the old one is deeply ingrained in your car, and changing it without screwing everything else up seems tricky, not to mention it still wont dadress your main problems with your car

theoretically changing parts could be fine, but from what they have said, it seems like it will effect a whole lot of things, that people didnt really need changed.

Ill tell you the most skill driven least spammy an interesting part of synthesis was finished parts, because you had to balance quality durability, and your own luck/ risk when deciding when to touch up an item. In this new system that is gone.

hqing parts is a much simpler equation, get highest quality possible with out breaking, hope for the best. Its a lot less interactive, and less entertaining.

there is a number of issues with the current plan, some they may have addressed behind the scenes, but overall, i think they dont care much at this point, i think they figure, whatever system they create people will adapt.

The one advantage of the changes does seeem to be with gatherers, in theory, their value should go up. but then again the value of items could just drop, i guess we ll see.

[Davorok]

I think I understand what they are trying to do with the Crafting System.

Old System: Many (if not most) crafters just rank up to cap on Parts. They very rarely make finished items (cuz the recipes are convoluted, require rare items and/or multiple crafts) and when they do, most get NPC'd because there just isn't player demand for Gear.

New System: Materia will create a constant market for finished Gear and should jump start an actual Economy.
< Crafters make Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Materia Enhanced Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers rank up on Materia-Enhanced Gear and need new higher rank gear >
< Crafters make higher ranked Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Higher Quality Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Higher Quality Materia Enhanced Gear (rank up) >
< Adventurers cap out, get bored, start a new Lvl 1 Class and need low rank gear >
<New (or old) crafters make low rank gear >
< etc., etc...>

Sounds like a good system to me. Let's just see how it works out but I'm sure it will get tweaked as time goes by.

[darkstarpoet1]

I think I understand what they are trying to do with the Crafting System.

Old System: Many (if not most) crafters just rank up to cap on Parts. They very rarely make finished items (cuz the recipes are convoluted, require rare items and/or multiple crafts) and when they do, most get NPC'd because there just isn't player demand for Gear.

New System: Materia will create a constant market for finished Gear and should jump start an actual Economy.
< Crafters make Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Materia Enhanced Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers rank up on Materia-Enhanced Gear and need new higher rank gear >
< Crafters make higher ranked Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Higher Quality Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Higher Quality Materia Enhanced Gear (rank up) >
< Adventurers cap out, get bored, start a new Lvl 1 Class and need low rank gear >
<New (or old) crafters make low rank gear >
< etc., etc...>

Sounds like a good system to me. Let's just see how it works out but I'm sure it will get tweaked as time goes by.

ummm you don't know basic economics. if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

[Arcell]

ummm you don't know basic economics. if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

You think only some of it will be taken out due to materia? If you fail a 5th materia attachment you just lost 5 materia plus the gear, that's 6 pieces of gear effectively. Now consider people will be doing this for all types of equipment (all armor slots + accessories + weapons). Tons of gear will be taken out of the system every day simply by conversion and failed attachment.

People may rank up on the "easiest" gear to make but they will likely start to make and sell the best gear for materia and the best gear to slot materia into.

[darkstarpoet1]

You think only some of it will be taken out due to materia? If you fail a 5th materia attachment you just lost 5 materia plus the gear, that's 6 pieces of gear effectively. Now consider people will be doing this for all types of equipment (all armor slots + accessories + weapons). Tons of gear will be taken out of the system every day simply by conversion and failed attachment.

People may rank up on the "easiest" gear to make but they will likely start to make and sell the best gear for materia and the best gear to slot materia into.

do you think you will be able to level up a peice of gear to be 100% spiritbound as fast as i can make one finished item? if i make 5-6 for every 1 you buy and get bound then it is not going to assist the economy. it will put multiple times the amount of product and you will not be able level them fast enough to be able to be converted.

just like i said, yes, instead of having one velveteen robe red you may have 2-3 of them, but if people are grinding on that item and there's thousands of them being made it will still be the same thing. i do the same thing grinding parts. i put a stack of whatever i am grinding into the wards and let them sell, but the rest go to the npc. do you think people are going to make an alt just to hold their 300 robes? if so what do they do with the 300 of their next grind item?

[Amineri]

if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

This is definitely an issue with the current recipe system. The recipes are highly unbalanced in terms of materials used and (rank of synth) vs (rank of item). This is one aspect of the recipe system that very much needs to change.

The synths you are talking about are represented by the 1 Yew Log ~> 4 Yew Lumber ~> 4 Yew Half Masks recipe chain. In this example, five synths generate four finished products. If each synth is 2 minutes (my usual benchmark, although faster for similar rank 'grind' recipes is possible), this results in 4 finished products every 10 minutes. There is no realistic way to think that 'attachment points' will be generated fast enough to convert finished items into materia at this rate.

Particularly in light of the proposed HQ changes, some of the output quantities may be (perhaps 'should' be?) adjusted downward. If every recipe requires at minimum 4 ingredients, and if every ingredient is produced one at a time, then four synths are needed to produce the ingredients for each finished item. This results in a minimum of five synths to generate 1 finished item, with a result of 1 finished item every 10 minutes of active crafting time. Thus crafters spend more time creating intermediate products and less time creating finished items

Side Note:

If this is so, why would SE be removing all the parts, since the long chains of parts such as : Iron Ore ~> Iron Nuggets ~> Iron Ingots ~> Iron Wire ~> Iron Rings ~> Iron Chain ~> Iron Sabatons ? The problem with these long chains is partly inventory clutter, and partly that they severely reduce the value of HQ gathered/dropped materials. Having such a recipe chain and then requiring HQ parts to create HQ item would then require (a) drops of HQ Iron Chain, or (b) allowing reasonable creation of HQ parts from NQ mats. Both have very negative repercussions.

Considering at least 7 item slots that could be converted (potentially more if jewelry is included), and supposing that that 1 hour of active play time would form enough attachment, that could convert 7 items into materia per hour, or slightly more than 1 finished item per 10 minutes.

Then we also have to consider the ratio of (players converting items to materia) to (players creating finished items). Every player can convert items to materia. SE told us that even crafters and gatherers can grow attachment with their actions. So maybe, just maybe, it's possible to tweak the system (both in terms of recipes and the rate that attachment forms) to be able consume all of the finished gear produced.

If this is to be so, expect to see recipes such as:

• 4 ore ~> 1 ingot
• 3 yarn ~> 1 cloth
• 1 log ~> 1 lumber
• 1 hide + 1 alumen ~> 1 leather

Also, expect to see the mask recipe change from

1 lumber ~> 1 mask

to something like

1 lumber + 1 leather + 1 cloth + 1 ingot ~> 1 mask

tl;dr Don't be surprised to see the 'simple' recipe go away, and don't be surprised to see finish item recipes require "process" ingredients. It's the only way (that I see) for SE to balance gear creation with gear consumption.

[Davorok]

ummm you don't know basic economics....just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

1 person buying 2-3 gears instead of one = increase of 1-2 items created and sold (economy grows)

50 people = 50-100 increase in manufactured and sold goods (economic growth)

1000 people = 1000 - 2000 increase in crafted & sold gear (is that not economic growth?)

5000 people (full server) = 5000 - 10,000 increase in manufactured and sold finished gear. (15,000 - 30,000 total)

This is just for 1 gear slot so 30,000 items X 7 slots = 210,000 gears manufactured & sold.
But this is just for 1 set so to get to R50 we need 210,000 gear sets X 4 sets (higher rank gears) = 840,000 total gear sets or 5,880,000 total finished gears manufactured and sold (per full server).

If I use a (probably) low figure of $10,000 per gear X 5,880,000 gears = $58,800,000,000. That is almost 60 Billion Dollars which is being traded in the Player Based Economy rather than lost in the vapour of NPC Sales. This doesn't even take into account Gatherers (DoL), Materia Makers (DoW/DoM), NM/Raid Drops (rare materials), etc., and the increase in demand for those items.

Will you personally sell 500 Dodo Harnesses in the MW? No, you will be lucky to sell 2-3 but that is still a net increase of $20-30,000 in your pocket and more importantly, it stays in the economy.

I still stand by my original (flawed) analogy.