Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Kaedan]

Eh... kind of sketchy. DRK is the worst MT of the three, in addition to being the worst OT. It's usable, but the same people who would kick a DRK for their dubious OT abilities would be just as well to avoid them for MT too. Especially for the Bismark Ex fight that OP mentioned. When I was doing it, I found that being a reliable DRK MT for that fight can be quite difficult, as in order to keep pumping out enough DPS to help the party clear the enrages, combined with that awful MP bug, you have to play it pretty fast and loose with your MP, which makes it hard to reliably gather up the right birds with AoEs when they spawn.

DRK is not the worst MT of the three. WAR is a worse MT than DRK. And DRK is a better OT than PLD. So DRK + WAR is a better combo than PLD + PLD or WAR + WAR. PLD + WAR is still the "Min/Max" of choice if you don't have any confidence in your tank player or are using a PUG. But DRK player that knows what they are doing doesn't put the party at any disadvantage.

[Pinkie_Pie]

DRK is not the worst MT of the three. WAR is a worse MT than DRK. And DRK is a better OT than PLD. So DRK + WAR is a better combo than PLD + PLD or WAR + WAR. PLD + WAR is still the "Min/Max" of choice if you don't have any confidence in your tank player or are using a PUG. But DRK player that knows what they are doing doesn't put the party at any disadvantage.

I've already said that to them but alot of min/max'ers don't like DRK and the idiots who believe in the bullcrap that DRK suck only makes it harder to get in a group. I feel sorry for MCH the worse apparently since I just found out they have bad dps it seems

[Kiteless]

DRK is not the worst MT of the three. WAR is a worse MT than DRK. And DRK is a better OT than PLD. So DRK + WAR is a better combo than PLD + PLD or WAR + WAR. PLD + WAR is still the "Min/Max" of choice if you don't have any confidence in your tank player or are using a PUG. But DRK player that knows what they are doing doesn't put the party at any disadvantage.

Why would WAR be a worse MT than DRK? WAR has better damage, better mitigation, and offers better party support than DRK while main tanking.

Why would PLD be a worse OT than DRK? PLD has similar damage output to DRK, exceeding it after about 2 minutes of fighting, and offers far better party support than DRK while off tanking.

I'm having an incredibly hard time trying to figure out what your reasoning is for either of these claims, because DRK offers absolutely nothing of value that these tanks aren't capable of doing better. The argument might be made that DRK has slightly better magical mitigation than the other tanks, but not even close to an extent that might leave them wanting.

In cases of WAR/WAR, you'll still far better damage than any combination involving DRK with just about the same utility; and in cases of PLD/PLD, the damage would be similar to any combination involving DRK, but with slightly better sustain and far more party utility.

[Kaedan]

Why would WAR be a worse MT than DRK? WAR has better damage, better mitigation, and offers better party support than DRK while main tanking.

Why would PLD be a worse OT than DRK? PLD has similar damage output to DRK, exceeding it after about 2 minutes of fighting, and offers far better party support than DRK while off tanking.

I'm having an incredibly hard time trying to figure out what your reasoning is for either of these claims, because DRK offers absolutely nothing of value that these tanks aren't capable of doing better.

-WAR does not have better mitigation than a DRK. Also, DRK and WAR are fairly equal in damage as MT. So: DRK has better mitigation and equal damage, so DRK is the better MT.
-DRK's damage as an OT is much higher than a PLDs, not "similar". True that DRKs have some TP issues, but that's after 3 minutes, not 2.

Curious what support you think WARs and PLDs offer better than DRKs too?

[Kiteless]

Comparing WAR and DRK mitigation:

1. Inner Beast: 20% reduction (also provides a 100% HP conversion rate as an extra effect). Usable pretty much every 15 seconds for 6 seconds at a time, with Infuriate allowing for more frequent use.

2. Vengeance: Strictly better than any mitigation skill that DRK has. Offers a shorter cooldown than Shadow Wall, with the same mitigation and a longer duration, a damaging secondary effect, and application of wrath stacks.

3. Raw intuition: 20% physical damage reduction from the front with a solid 20 second duration on a 90 second cooldown.

4. Storm's Path: 10% damage reduction with 50% HP conversion rate that is easy to keep up at all times when necessary, with no requirement other than being in a combo (that refreshes your 20% damage boost). Utility move that can be used from an OT or MT situation, if needed.

5. Holmgang: TO THE LAST, I GRAPPLE WITH THEE! 6 seconds of not dying. No Hallowed Ground, but it gets the job done.

This is in addition to Defiance, which grants a 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*. There's also the parry buff which increases with Wrath stacks, not particularly huge, but worth noting at least. While this isn't strictly mitigation in itself, it is a clear increase in EHP for when it's needed. Additionally, being off the GCD makes stance dancing not only a breeze, but encouraged for optimal usage in all forms.

DRK has:

1. Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction. Its ridiculous MP cost and being on the GCD sucks, but it does what it needs to. Stance dancing is hard to properly encourage, since the MP cost makes it hard to justify switching back and forth, even with regen from Blood Weapon, and being on the GCD makes the actual switch without a DPS loss difficult.

2. Shadowskin: This is a reskinned rampart, 20% reduction, 20 seconds every 90. Good skill.

3. Shadow Wall: As noted above, this suffers from being the worst of everything between PLD and WAR cooldowns. WAR level mitigation, shorter duration, no secondary bonus, 180 second cooldown. Sucks, but we use it because we have nothing better.

4. Dark Mind: 15% magic damage reduction, 30% if using Dark Arts. Costly under DA, but extremely effective against magic tankbusters with a surprisingly short cooldown. The main problem is that most tank busters tend to be physical. That said, not bad.

5. Reprisal: 10% damage reduction, only applicable after a parry, meaning it can't be used against enemies that rely on purely magical damage (Ramuh) and only during an extremely short window. Should not be relied upon.

6. Living Dead: Similar to Holmgang, except you can cast it in advance, and it lasts a good bit longer. Major downside, in addition to have a way longer cooldown, however, is that once activated, it requires heavy healer attention to avoid dying, defeating a lot of its supposed utility as an "oh shit" button. Furthermore, in order to not die after its use, you must be healed for exactly your full amount of health. Because the skill leaves you with 1HP, you will die, even if you are healed to full. You must sustain further damage after Walking Dead activates so that it can be healed. This makes Living Dead not only incredibly unreliable, but also punishes smart play.

Dark Dance does not count as a viable damage mitigation skill outside of trash mobs, since it is in no way reliable (and 30% parry rate on a cooldown is terrible anyway). Dark Arts version should not be used because it is not only not reliable, but also interacts poorly with other skills, preventing their application. And with Living Dead, that evasion rate can end up killing you.
As for Delirium, if that 10% Int debuff is really that important, just get a MNK to do it for you.

So, if you're going to go out of your way to not include Defiance's HP increase as the quasi-mitigation skill and include Dark Dance as one (at which point, you might as well include lolForesight), DRK might have two more mitigation skills than WAR, but WAR's are substantially better, and capable of being kept up far more often, for a longer period of time, and far more reliably. It also doesn't count the inclusion of Equilibrium, which provides a stronger effect than DRK's closest equivalent, Sole Survivor, with half the cooldown time and no prerequisite for activation, and doesn't need to be applied in advance, allowing you to use it on demand.


Reprisal is the only mitigation skill that would be notable from DRK's point of view as a main tank, but it's unreliable for the purposes of mitigating tank busters, thanks to its extremely short activation period and parry requirement meaning you can't save it and guarantee its use when it's likely to be the most valued, and thus is not worth considering for the purposes of MT utility.

[Daerthalus]

Defiance: Tank Stance, 25% health increase *in addition to a 20% increase in healing*.
Grit: Tank stance, 20% damage reduction.

I 100% agree. The 20% increased healing along with 25% bonus health results in essentially similar 'toughness'. I decline to use the word mitigation b.c. Defiance does not reduce the amount of damage you take, expect for the minor Parry increase.

Take the following example:

10,000 Damage HIT after Defense
10,000 Base HP
Ignore Parry

Dark Knight:
-10% Debuff @ 67% Uptime = 6.7% Reduced Damage
10000 * (0,933) * (0.80) = 7464
10000 - 7464 = 2536 HP Remaining
Healing Required: 7464 HP

Warrior:
-10% Debuff @ 100% uptime
10000 * (0.9) * 1 = 9000
10000 *125% - 9000 = 3500 HP
Healing Required: 9,000 / 120% = 7500 HP

The two classes require almost the same amount of healing to offset the same hit. The warrior's mitigation is lower but the increased healing and hp offset a large portion of it.

[Kiteless]

For what it's worth, and why I didn't consider Defiance for the sake of "mitigation" in this case, Defiance's HP gains are lost each time you end up switching over to Deliverance. Now, good WARs should know when and when not to switch between these stances, mitigating the loss in "switched HP" almost entirely, but I'm going to give WAR benefit of the doubt in order to come from the worst possible situation here.

If we include Defiance as something along the same lines as Grit for these purposes, and make the assumption that the WAR is able to keep it up whenever it's needed, and that the healers have no trouble keeping him topped off after any given switch (assuming one is made), then WAR absolutely obliterates DRK when it comes to defensive values. It goes from a losing contest for DRK, to something that can't even fairly be considered comparable.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

For what it's worth, and why I didn't consider Defiance for the sake of "mitigation" in this case, Defiance's HP gains are lost each time you end up switching over to Deliverance. Now, good WARs should know when and when not to switch between these stances, mitigating the loss in "switched HP" almost entirely, but I'm going to give WAR benefit of the doubt in order to come from the worst possible situation here.

If we include Defiance as something along the same lines as Grit for these purposes, and make the assumption that the WAR is able to keep it up whenever it's needed, and that the healers have no trouble keeping him topped off after any given switch (assuming one is made), then WAR absolutely obliterates DRK when it comes to defensive values. It goes from a losing contest for DRK, to something that can't even fairly be considered comparable.

People are finally thinking i'm not crazy. <3

I really want Grit's damage reduction penalty removed removed or the class changed to be a "different" kind of tank because of this. I want Dark Knight's to be the more offensive tanks.

[Ampheni]

Those guys are just complete idiots, or the DRKs they met are simply BAD. I have my bismarck ex clear and I also have my Ravana EX clear, heck I have even gotten my Hive Claymore now. And 4 out of those 10 clears was me solo tanking, and the other 6 was me OT'ing as DRK (Ravana Ex). Kicking you for being a DRK in Bismarck EX? I call bs.

[repoe]

For what it's worth, and why I didn't consider Defiance for the sake of "mitigation" in this case, Defiance's HP gains are lost each time you end up switching over to Deliverance. Now, good WARs should know when and when not to switch between these stances, mitigating the loss in "switched HP" almost entirely, but I'm going to give WAR benefit of the doubt in order to come from the worst possible situation here.

.

That's why any warrior the knows what their doing knows to pop a mitigation such as Tob+conv/vengeance. when Mting without defiance. HP DOES NOT EQUAL DEFENSE

P.s I'm not saying drks are bad my co tank in raid is Drk now and he did just fine in Bismark and ravana ex