A serious discussion about abridging the story quest 1-50 (discouraging new players)

[Zabuza]

So you just can't post without being strawmanning, or you choose not to? I read your post, you chose to imply that people who want to skip the story also expect instant max level gear. There's no way to prove that, you're just throwing insults and allegations at people who may or may not like or have ever played "that other MMO".

Correct me if I'm wrong, cause this is a monster thread and I may have missed a post - I don't recall ever seeing anybody unironically suggesting that people ACTUALLY be given raid gear without raiding, ever, outside of a strawman post made to insult another user/game.

No, you misunderstood the point of all of my posts

It's sad to see how brainwashed people have become from a certain other MMO. It has taught them to believe gating things behind raids or meaningless rep grinds or token grinds is ok, but apparently gating things behind a meaningful story that actually makes sense IN THE GAME WORLD is not ok. Gotta love it. If any MMO deviates from this formula, they are wrong and how dare they force people to do this content. And you all wonder why there have been no MMOs with any innovation since the juggernaut of MMOs came out 10 years ago? You guys are why. You clamor for it but you can't even take the slightest change to the formula without whining.

This is what I said in a previous post. I acknowledge that people think gating content behind raids or rep/token grinds is fine, but gating things behind the MSQ isn't. That's what baffles me. The MSQ gives meaning to the world you are playing in, and yeah, it's time consuming, but it's relatively easy in difficulty to complete to say, a raid. Why is grinding dungeon after dungeon for tomes ok but doing the MSQ one time, each a different quest, not ok? It is because people have been brainwashed by the other MMO's formula into deciding what is ok to gate and not ok to gate. Because the other MMO still gate things behind rep/token grinds and raids, you guys have no problem with it in this game. Because that other MMO doesn't gate content behind their MSQ, you're not ok with it in this game. That is my point.

What I believe is people skipping the msq isn't going to impact my gameplay. They already do it. Look at the sheer number of 60's in the first few days. The majority of those players were mashing the esc key.
Keeping gear, dungeons, and raids gated behind the msq is fine, Having and overtly long msq filled with filler and fetch quests gating content isn't.

I have already acknowledged that I too would be down for doing away with the filler and fetch quests that are embedded in the MSQ. I do not, however, support making the entire MSQ(including the relevant quests that actually explain things) optional.

[ThanMazus]

No, you misunderstood the point of all of my posts

Falling back to the "You didn't understand/You didn't read", which is this forum's favorite conversation dismissal phrase?

I understood your post, you just said something completely ridiculous in it. The MSQ gives meaning to the world if you *let* it. I've skipped every single cutscene from 2.1 forward to the end of Heavensward. The MSQ gave me Experience points and gear, nothing else.

Grinding dungeons for gear is okay, because that's been the standard for games for approximately forever in RPGs.

Is it possible, *JUST POSSIBLE*, that having a different opinion than you DOESN'T mean people are brainwashed by "that other game"? Could it be that some people like dungeons, but not quests? What if a person never played "that other game", how would you account for them being brainwashed?

[Zabuza]

Falling back to the "You didn't understand/You didn't read", which is this forum's favorite conversation dismissal phrase?

I understood your post, you just said something completely ridiculous in it. The MSQ gives meaning to the world if you *let* it. I've skipped every single cutscene from 2.1 forward to the end of Heavensward. The MSQ gave me Experience points and gear, nothing else.

Grinding dungeons for gear is okay, because that's been the standard for games for approximately forever in RPGs.

Is it possible, *JUST POSSIBLE*, that having a different opinion than you DOESN'T mean people are brainwashed by "that other game"? Could it be that some people like dungeons, but not quests? What if a person never played "that other game", how would you account for them being brainwashed?

There you go, you literally just admitted to being brainwashed. As for your last sentence, the influence of that other game stretches over the entire MMO genre itself. They made this model popular, and other MMO creators emulated it. So even if someone hadn't played that juggernaut MMO, they likely played a game based off the same model, or had a conception of what an MMO was supposed to be, all shaped from that game. If you wanna talk standards for just RPGs, gating things behind the story is also a staple of single player RPGs, or at least FF in general. If we're talking MMOs well... see above.

And yes, you did misunderstand. I wasn't saying the same people who want to skip the MSQ also want free best in slot gear. Far from it. They accept they won't get best in slot gear as ok but somehow now that they have to complete a story, that's a travesty.

[ThanMazus]

There you go, you literally just admitted to being brainwashed. As for your last sentence, the influence of that other game stretches over the entire MMO genre itself. They made this model popular, and other MMO creators emulated it. So even if someone hadn't played WoW, they likely played a game based off the same model, or had a conception of what an MMO was supposed to be, all shaped from that game.

Get real, seriously. Brainwashed, because I answered your question? Brainwashed, because I gave you the answer other people are going to give you as well? Brainwashed, because I disgree with you on an internet forum about an online video game? Brainwashed, because I gave you an answer with decades of evidence backing it?

I don't think you actually can post without insulting someone or something.

[Zabuza]

Get real, seriously. Brainwashed, because I answered your question? Brainwashed, because I gave you the answer other people are going to give you as well? Brainwashed, because I disgree with you on an internet forum about an online video game? Brainwashed, because I gave you an answer with decades of evidence backing it?

I don't think you actually can post without insulting someone or something.

It wasn't the fact you answered it, it was the way you answered it.

Grinding dungeons for gear is okay, because that's been the standard for games for approximately forever in RPGs.

So that's your reasoning. Because it's the standard. That's it. What MMO do you think established the standard for what MMOs are today? Whether you realize it or not, you had proved my point with that sentence. Because the MMO market has established it as something that's ok, it must be ok. Because other current MMOs don't gate things behind story, it's not ok. That's your entire reasoning.

[Zabuza]

You know I said current right?

I realize what you had said. Why do you think that is? MMO companies are afraid to innovate, lest they lose customers. SE is trying to breathe life back into this shattered genre by going with a move that is slightly off the norm, and look at the backlash.

[Tuathaa]

I realize what you had said. Why do you think that is? MMO companies are afraid to innovate, lest they lose customers. SE is trying to breathe life back into this shattered genre by going with a move that is slightly off the norm, and look at the backlash.

This isn't even slightly off norm or innovative for the FF franchise and they aren't trying to breathe new life into the genre. Now your kidding yourself. They just made another FF game same as always.
Where games like WoW, SWtOR, GW2 and the others excel is that they listen to their player base and actually tries to deliver on requests, content, and gamplay suggestions. SE seems to just want to do their own thing and really couldn't care.
Which is why threads like this exist and go for 55+ pages.

[ThanMazus]

That's your entire reasoning.

How the tables have turned! Now it's MY turn to say someone didn't read! I said RPGs, not MMOs! You made a lot of ridiculous assumptions on my logic and reasoning and you're completely misguided in doing so! RPGs have been out far longer than MMOs, and that was the reference I was making. 30~ years of history is a lot stronger backing than saying "well, it must be because this OTHER MMO does it and that's what you think because you're brainwashed"

Now seriously, try making just a single post, just one, without leaping to conclusions in order to say bad things about a person or a game. Try it, you might like it!

[Zabuza]

How the tables have turned! Now it's MY turn to say someone didn't read! I said RPGs, not MMOs! You made a lot of ridiculous assumptions on my logic and reasoning and you're completely misguided in doing so! RPGs have been out far longer than MMOs, and that was the reference I was making. 30~ years of history is a lot stronger backing than saying "well, it must be because this OTHER MMO does it and that's what you think because you're brainwashed"

Now seriously, try making just a single post, just one, without leaping to conclusions in order to say bad things about a person or a game. Try it, you might like it!

I already covered that point, if you go back and look, and trumped you.

There you go, you literally just admitted to being brainwashed. As for your last sentence, the influence of that other game stretches over the entire MMO genre itself. They made this model popular, and other MMO creators emulated it. So even if someone hadn't played that juggernaut MMO, they likely played a game based off the same model, or had a conception of what an MMO was supposed to be, all shaped from that game. If you wanna talk standards for just RPGs, gating things behind the story is also a staple of single player RPGs, or at least FF in general. If we're talking MMOs well... see above.

And yes, you did misunderstand. I wasn't saying the same people who want to skip the MSQ also want free best in slot gear. Far from it. They accept they won't get best in slot gear as ok but somehow now that they have to complete a story, that's a travesty.

Literally edited that in one minute after making that post, ten minutes before you just made this post trying to make me look bad, so no, try again.

So if we're really talking single player RPGs, tell me why gating things behind story in single player RPGs is ok, but gating things behind MMOs are not? Were you upset when you couldn't get to the Northern Cave in FFVII in disc 1? No, you probably didn't even know about its existence until you actually played through the STORY and had it explained to you why you were even going to the Northern Cave.

Thank you so much for bringing this up, because at the end of the day, despite it being forgotten through the years by companies and players, this is an MMORPG. Luckily, SE still remembers this!