SMN Theorycraft and comparison to Blm

[pandabearcat]

SMN utility extremely strong already, they don't need more utility o.o

What we need is for aethertrails to have infinite duration ._.

[Clarkamite]

Snip

Just a couple things I took issue with in your post though on the whole I agree. Let me start off by saying I'm a Black Mage main and will always be a Black Mage main. I loved it in 2.0 and I love it now. There are a couple of things that make the "rotation" messy at least as it pertains to the current endgame scene but overall I think it's in a fairly decent spot.

One thing I took issue with is you saying you played when Summoner, Scholar and Warrior were garbage. I can't speak on the Scholar part although I will say I never recall Scholars ever being excluded. Warrior definitely was in a rough spot for awhile but Summoner? When was that ever garbage? Maybe to people who didn't understand Summoner. Pre SE taking away Thunder, Summoner was God mode. Post, less God mode but still pretty damn good. I had Summoner friends hitting huge numbers all the time. Anyone remember how the opening pull of Twintania Summoners were insane? How about during Snakes?

My group has to this day run this comp: PLD, WAR, SCH, WHM, NIN (or DRG for awhile), BRD, BLM, SMN and we've cleared content just fine. Our SMN did switch up to a MNK during our T13 progression but that was just for the Dragonkick to help our Healers a little. Our Warrior had the worst time holding aggro for some dumb reason. Can't count the number of times our Warrior swore up and down saying he had a "Full combo Butchers Block up on the add right away" but it immediately went and ate our WHM.

If we are comparing numbers on dummies than obviously Black Mage is going to look super pretty. In actual practice, those numbers are less pretty but I would by no means say they need a serious buff and I certainly would never be as asinine to suggest Summoners need a nerf. MAYBE a couple of really really small tweaks for Black Mage but even then I'm fine with it if they don't. Both Casters are in a good spot.

As far as people saying BLM AOE is really bad now, I can't give you numbers but you definitely feel A LOT weaker. It's noticeable to go into old dungeons now and Flare a group that would normally all die but you're left with 3-4 stragglers with a decent chunk of HP left. Speaking from the POV of someone who used to Flare religiously in dungeons, that FEELS really gimped now. I'm sure the actual numbers are fine and in line with what SE intended, it just feels weak from before.

If I'm being perfectly honest though I'm kinda ok with that. Flare still has pretty solid utility in a ST rotation and I always hated how my job in dungeons was the same Every. Single. Patch. At least now I have an excuse not to AOE until the dungeon is over. A lot of pulls right now, AOE simply isn't faster than just putting up Enochian and unleashing some ST madness.

[pandabearcat]

SMN was good when bards were still casting Ballad.

If they were not, SMN was worthless past 2 minutes (past 1.5 minutes or so if they had to multidot). It was not a good time. Ruin mana nerf was drastically, drastically needed.

Similarly, back when we had thunder, it also made us oom in 2 minutes. So good dps on short fights, worthless afterwards. That was BLM's strength (and just much better AoE). It was never that SMN didn't "do enough damage".

Nowadays, SMN is fantastic and double SMN is definitely viable, which I very much enjoy. BLM needs some help with ley lines (or really, just fights that aren't bonkers mobile) and enochian duration.

SMN needs some help with annoying boss desyncs and timing Aethertrails - I wish these would last forever. Also zero burst w/o 3D means you have to know a fight inside and out to use your abilities in the correct times.

[Koyuki38]

SMN get nerfed, they renamed Tri-Disaster in Tri-Bind

:-(

Currently, double SMN for farming the last dungeon is really worth

[HaroldSaxon]

SMN utility extremely strong already, they don't need more utility o.o

What we need is for aethertrails to have infinite duration ._.

What, a raise?

Scholar already has super virus and eye for an eye. Summoner doesn't have any dps utility. In fact, the only specific caster based DPS utility there is left is Bard and Mechanist; and both are for shorter durations. Nothing like Disembowel or Dragon Kick. You could argue that you could give it to BLM, but I feel it would suite Summoner more.

[Koyuki38]

the only utility missing would be some damage increase for our party/

Bard improves our dps, mecha does, drg does, etc
but we have nothing to pay back

anyway, i don't care, i hate them all

[pandabearcat]

You really feel applying an always on debuff counts as utility? That's pretty much the opposite of utility.

I didn't realize every party had a scholar. Might as well say "why bring a ninja for slashing debuff, warriors already provide it".

You really don't think raise is very good? Hmm...I'd trade all utility from any other class (maybe not bard) for another battleres.

Furthermore, if say, SMN brought a caster damage cooldown or applied an always on caster damage debuff...

1. Your class would be balanced around it. Which means you'd just do 10% less damage.
2. You'd give up an ability to gain it. Again, a loss all around.

Woo.

Also I didn't realize that having more virus was a bad thing. Or that SCH already had 100% uptime on Eye for Eye. Or that having 2 shadowflares is better than 0 (or 1, if you're dead set on every raid has a scholar).

SMN's utility is very, very good. Just because it is not a dps increase does not mean it is not utility.

[Sunako]

What we need is for aethertrails to have infinite duration ._.

30 sec duration is pretty long already. That actually make it more fun those stacks can drop if you mess around. If aethertrails would be infinite, you would need run out from the instance after every pull and burn aetherflows on dummy or something like that if you would want max dps.

[HaroldSaxon]

You really feel applying an always on debuff counts as utility? That's pretty much the opposite of utility.

That is why I said "DPS Utility". Not just flat utility.

I didn't realize every party had a scholar. Might as well say "why bring a ninja for slashing debuff, warriors already provide it".

Because doesn't Ninja's rotation change when you bring a warrior so you get more DPS? Just like when you bring two Monks, one can just use bootshine. That is still DPS utility.

Furthermore, I said unique utility. I didn't say the utility was useless. I also didn't say which healer classes are optimal because i'm not a healer, but from what i've heard (and it could be wrong), that WHM+SCH are stronger for healing. But again, not a healer.

You really don't think raise is very good? Hmm...I'd trade all utility from any other class (maybe not bard) for another battleres.

I don't think its as useful in progression as Dragon Kick or more DPS.

Furthermore, if say, SMN brought a caster damage cooldown or applied an always on caster damage debuff...

1. Your class would be balanced around it. Which means you'd just do 10% less damage.
2. You'd give up an ability to gain it. Again, a loss all around.

Woo.

Not necessarily. Add it to another ability, and it would enable a caster based party to compete with Melee based party.

Also I didn't realize that having more virus was a bad thing.

Its almost as if Virus applies a debuff onto the boss which doesn't allow further virus usage until its cooldown is back up.

Or that SCH already had 100% uptime on Eye for Eye.

No, but its still not unique to the class. Other classes can use it.

Or that having 2 shadowflares is better than 0 (or 1, if you're dead set on every raid has a scholar).

Does the Shadowflare slow stack?

SMN's utility is very, very good. Just because it is not a dps increase does not mean it is not utility.

I never said it wasn't, that is why I specified DPS utility in my post. In future, can you actually read my posts

[pandabearcat]

I assume when you said dps utility you meant utility for a dps.

If you actually meant a damage buff I'll say no, this is a pointless homogenization if every single class brought a buff that buffed...their class.

Might as well bake it into every class's abilities to do 10% more damage.

DPS utility if it isn't a cooldown or something isn't that - esp if it doesn't even change their rotation at all (like ninja, and dragoon). It wouldn't change gameplay, it wouldn't make SMN more desirable, and it would be as if it didn't even exist.

As to your points about stuff,

1. Virus's cooldown is longer than its duration. However a SCH and a SMN together can provide maximum supervirus uptime. Other classes using virus is a loss.
2. Since every fight so far has adds, and most bosses are immune to slow, I'd wager that having 2 areas for shadowflare is better than 1. For instance, bismarck.
3. Uniqueness is overrated. I'm really not sure what you are looking for here.