I would like a numerical analysis of Bard MP regain and MCH MP regain

[Sleigh]

Brd also have battle voice which increases the regen.

BRD gets BV for 30s every 5m. MCH gets Hypercharge for 15s every 2m. In that sense MCH is a "better" MP/TP regen class.

Both BV and Hypercharge are terrible to use for that purpose though. Huge raid DPS loss.

[Ooshima]

BRD gets BV for 30s every 5m. MCH gets Hypercharge for 15s every 2m. In that sense MCH is a "better" MP/TP regen class.

Both BV and Hypercharge are terrible to use for that purpose though. Huge raid DPS loss.

Ha, that came from a BLM, no wonder.

If you have to BV a Ballad because your healers went south, you have to.

BVing a few ticks of Paeon and switching out to Foe is another tactic deployed in TP intensive fights like T11. There is simply no point in playing extended Paeon and wait for MP to be full again for a full bar BV Foe. Doing that is a loss.

[Mimiru_S]

Just a shame that they essentially made MCH a carbon copy of BRD, just instead of a bow and songs, they get a gun and turrets. Would have like to see them give MCH their own style.

[Ooshima]

Just a shame that they essentially made MCH a carbon copy of BRD, just instead of a bow and songs, they get a gun and turrets. Would have like to see them give MCH their own style.

TBH it is more like the idea of MCH was slapped right onto BRD.

I have played both MCH and BRD to 60 and cleared them in Ravana/Bismark EX and I have to say that MCH game play at 60 is more fluid than BRD. MCH when in turret mode had an easier time in movement because of having more oGCDs plus being able to hold 2 procs for up to 10s for movement, like how BLM uses F3 procs to move.

What SE has done is lazily slapped the idea of GB onto BRD @ 60 in the form of WM, without consideration of the base difference in MCH/BRD game play. Whilst both of them are largely similar that they have the option to be mobile outside turret mode and able to regen resources etc, a closer inspection will tell you that they are different. As a result, when slapped with WM, BRD lacks the movement management capabilities that were conferred to MCH - MCH goes like: Split shot, procs Slug Shot, uses Slug Shot and procs Clean Shot, holds clean shot and use Split Shot to proc Slug Shot. There you have 2 procs on hand which you can fire them off - Clean followed by Slug, with a chance to proc Clean again.

BRD have none of this to manage movement and BRD can only proc one thing which is called BL, and it is a DPS loss to hold on to it. BRD's turret stance skill, Empyreal Arrow is a casting spell while Gauss Round is an instant ability which gives MCH another upper edge in terms of movement.

Machinist isn't a copy of BRD. It is a job designed from ground up. WM is a copy of GB, and a badly slapped on one.

[Sleigh]

I should have been more specific, terrible for use as a planned occurance is more fitting.

BVing a few ticks of Paeon and switching out to Foe is another tactic deployed in TP intensive fights like T11. There is simply no point in playing extended Paeon and wait for MP to be full again for a full bar BV Foe. Doing that is a loss.

Assuming we're talking about a situation where healers don't need Ballad ...

If you are going to end a fight between the time you regain BV but before you have enough MP for a full set of Foe's, there are usually only two scenarios: that's fine and you should have played Foe's before the 5m mark and the BV gets tacked unto your final Foe's, or you don't get much out of Foe's and you overplayed Paeon (or played it late) and accidentally underplayed Foe's.

Most other, further into the fight timelines still wouldn't benefit from BV Paeon because if you still have BV at a time where you would need another set of Paeon, you've neglected Foe's. Basically if there's even one scrap of BV going towards Paeon you could have balanced out Foe's vs Paeon better.

[Felessan]

BRD have none of this to manage movement and BRD can only proc one thing which is called BL, and it is a DPS loss to hold on to it.

Actually Straight Shot proc can be held for movement. When it's activated via proc it have instant cast.

[Ooshima]

snip

Nah. this is entirely situational but undeniably BV'd paeon for a couple of ticks at the right time helps in overall TP management for the entire fight and could meant that you can do one less cast of Paeon at the end. I've seen several BRDs/fights from top flight teams pulling this too.

Paeon regens and maintains the DPS of 2 melees + yourself as a BRD while Paeon works for your one and only caster plus a part contribution from your SCH (and maybe... a little from WHM). Sustaining your 2 melee's DPS is more important than giving that 10% to your caster, sadly speaking. If your melees run dry and have to cut down on things like ToD etc then it is a greater raid DPS loss.

Actually Straight Shot proc can be held for movement. When it's activated via proc it have instant cast.

SS proc can't be compared to MCH's proc holding capabilites. This is because SS is triggered by your main spam skill HS. Literally as a BRD once you noticed HS proc you need to fire it off, and the only time you hold it is when you got a proc after HS and your next 2 moves are either WB+VB or if you are under WM mode, EA/IJ

MCH have the capability to chain procs and hold them. If you get a Clean Shot proc after Slug Shot, you do not have to immediately fire off Clean Shot. Technically you should use Split Shot again and try to chain a Slug Shot proc so that you have both Slug/Clean Shot on proc.

Under such a scenario you have 2 procs to use as movement (Clean Shot followed by Slug), plus a potential 3rd proc since that Slug Shot can chain a Clean Shot proc again.

On top of this, if Reload/Quick reload is up in times of massive movement requirements then this is another MCH saviour. BRDs doesn't have this luxury. You will also notice this difference in the opening for Ravana EX - BRD will have to be very careful during the Barrage+EA => WS => HS/IJ part because that is when Ravana will start his All Seeing Wings/Left/Right stances. You don't want to get caught in the middle of a cast while he is activating that and got yourself a slow debuff. MCH does not have this concern in their opener because of Reload/Quick Reload confers them lots of mobility as they are on a chain series of proc.

[Sleigh]

Nah. this is entirely situational but undeniably BV'd paeon for a couple of ticks at the right time helps in overall TP management for the entire fight and could meant that you can do one less cast of Paeon at the end. I've seen several BRDs/fights from top flight teams pulling this too.

Paeon regens and maintains the DPS of 2 melees + yourself as a BRD while Paeon works for your one and only caster plus a part contribution from your SCH (and maybe... a little from WHM). Sustaining your 2 melee's DPS is more important than giving that 10% to your caster, sadly speaking. If your melees run dry and have to cut down on things like ToD etc then it is a greater raid DPS loss.

Of course Paeon > Foe's, I'm not one of those guys. If a fight/phase lasts longer than 4m-ish it's gonna be Foe's > Paeon rather than Foe's > Foe's.

That said, I'm still not seeing a timeline where BV Paeon would lead to more raid DPS. Humor me and tell me a fight duration and timeline so I can understand your PoV, if you would.

[Ooshima]

Of course Paeon > Foe's, I'm not one of those guys. If a fight/phase lasts longer than 4m-ish it's gonna be Foe's > Paeon rather than Foe's > Foe's.

That said, I'm still not seeing a timeline where BV Paeon would lead to more raid DPS. Humor me and tell me a fight duration and timeline so I can understand your PoV, if you would.

Honestly I'm not going to dig old threads on FCoB bard discussion to point to you where those discussions are, if you are keen to know then you should do some research yourself.

And I have said it is entirely situational. Not every party are the same and each team's BRD have to learn to tune to their own team's TP/MP needs to decide the flow of songs.

I have pointed out one example which is in T11. After the adds phase, BV'd Paeon for a few ticks before switching out to Foe for the entire bar and kill the boss before you need to Paeon again.

[SovereignAegis]

So anymore people have evidence one way or another?

I got told today I was wrong and MCH is lower.