[dev1016] Post 1.20 HQ Crafting

[Frein]

Current crafters life: "Hmm i want to make a HQ doublet", off to the market wards i go buy the mats (or farm them), try to make but... only NQ . Never mind let me try this again, two or three attempts go by. BAM! HQ!

So not only has this crafter put money in to the economy they have also put 4 new NQ doublets in to the wards for non craftes to buy.

No, this is how it goes:

Hmm, I want to make a HQ doublet. Oh, wait, I'm not 20 ranks above the recipe, so I can't. I'll just go buy it from the wards instead.

Yoshi's crafters life: "Hmm i want to make a HQ doublet", off to the market wards i go buy the HQ mats (or farm them), try to make and... BAM! HQ!

So this crafter put money in to the economy but the by-product of NQ gear isn't there. the crafter isn't going to make/sell NQ stuff (even more so for low lvl gear), and if they make more HQ gear other then the piece they made for them selfs it will be out of the price range of the casual player.

Both these example are going to be hampered by the same HUGE flaw in the game, "the market wards". i'd still pick option one though. it's better for the game over all.

So what if it takes a few attempts to get a HQ verson, this is no diffrient to killing a NM for a piece of gear that may or may not drop, or winning or failing a raid, Do you really want everything to be 100%?

You forget that NQ gear has cheaper materials than HQ gear and this is key. Cheapness of materials is what will keep NQ gear competitive. The flaw with the current system is that a low rank crafter cannot compete with a high rank crafter because they turn the same materials into different products.

[Okiura]

No, this is how it goes:

Hmm, I want to make a HQ doublet. Oh, wait, I'm not 20 ranks above the recipe, so I can't. I'll just go buy it from the wards instead.

i wasn't trying to referance the current state of the HQ/NQ system, i my self have gotten quality over 400 many times yet this rarely leads to a HQ. increasing these odds is not the same as making it 100%, and i will be all for changes in this system to make it a bit more balanced.

You forget that NQ gear has cheaper materials than HQ gear and this is key. Cheapness of materials is what will keep NQ gear competitive. The flaw with the current system is that a low rank crafter cannot compete with a high rank crafter because they turn the same materials into different products.

this i's just have to disagree with mainly because the question will be "why make an NQ item for a 10k profit whin i can make a HQ item for a 100k profit in the same amount of time?" so the HQ mats cost more not a issue when you know the outcome is going to be a HQ item.

Edit: As for making items out of the random mats cottected during normal game play, if it's good SP do it and NPC keep retainer space for the high value HQs. if it not good SP the just NPC the NQ mats.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

this i's just have to disagree with mainly because the question will be "why make an NQ item for a 10k profit whin i can make a HQ item for a 100k profit in the same amount of time?" so the HQ mats cost more not a issue when you know the outcome is going to be a HQ item.

Edit: As for making items out of the random mats cottected during normal game play, if it's good SP do it and NPC keep retainer space for the high value HQs. if it not good SP the just NPC and NQ mats.

I kinda get this but you need to think of the big picture. Not everyone will be able to afford HQ gears or HQ mats to craft HQ gears even if it is more profitable. So there will still be a market for NQ gears for the average player who is low on gils. The rarity (as stated by Yoshi-P) of the HQ mats will make it so that it is rare and valuable to gather and craft the HQ gears but the majority of the mats available will be NQ.

People will grind on NQ gears so there will always be a market for that, new people and people with less gils that need a new piece of gear might buy a NQ gears until they can craft or afford a HQ one. So there will be a market for both NQ and HQ gears.

Sure if you can afford the mats to make your HQ gear, you won't bother with NQ stuff, but there might not be the HQ mats available to buy. So NQ mats and items will still sell at a good rate for an affordable price, HQ mats and gears will sell at a slower rate because they will be rarer and more expensive.

[Okiura]

I kinda get this but you need to think of the big picture. Not everyone will be able to afford HQ gears or HQ mats to craft HQ gears even if it is more profitable. So there will still be a market for NQ gears for the average player who is low on gils. The rarity (as stated by Yoshi-P) of the HQ mats will make it so that it is rare and valuable to gather and craft the HQ gears but the majority of the mats available will be NQ.

I do see your point here even if i can't fully agree. But i think Yoshi-P is setting he self up to shoot himself in the foot here, too rare and the only HQ items you'll see is those high level items that people specficly went out get, too common and you'll never see NQ gear. it will be such a fine balance to get it right.

Either way the solution is simply no gurantees on quality (well maybe for super super rare items he's adding). have x% that NQ mats can = HQ, and x% that HQ mats may fail and = NQ. though the chance of HQ vs NQ in either scnario need to repersent the mats that are being put into the systh. which i think is how the sytem was "ment" to be as it is now, the fact that is not is the real issue.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I do see your point here even if i can't fully agree. But i think Yoshi-P is setting he self up to shoot himself in the foot here, too rare and the only HQ items you'll see is those high level items that people specficly went out get, too common and you'll never see NQ gear. it will be such a fine balance to get it right.

Either way the solution is simply no gurantees on quality (well maybe for super super rare items he's adding). have x% that NQ mats can = HQ, and x% that HQ mats may fail and = NQ. though the chance of HQ vs NQ in either scnario need to repersent the mats that are being put into the systh. which i think is how the sytem was "ment" to be as it is now, the fact that is not is the real issue.

We will have to see what how everything pans out with those changes for sure. But don't you think it's fair for someone who spent the time to gather HQ mats (or lots of money to buy them, which is good since in that case gils change hands) have a guarantee to have a HQ craft? If you really want to make that HQ gear then you work for it and go get the necessary mats. Right now, it's just luck based mostly.

But yes, I agree if it's too common then there will be an overload of HQ mats and make NQ stuff go away but I am confident they can find the balance to make them rare enough yet not unobtainable.

The other question is if you have all HQ items but 1, do you have a change at HQ or not at all? The way I read it it's not at all.

[Okiura]

We will have to see what how everything pans out with those changes for sure. But don't you think it's fair for someone who spent the time to gather HQ mats (or lots of money to buy them, which is good since in that case gils change hands) have a guarantee to have a HQ craft? If you really want to make that HQ gear then you work for it and go get the necessary mats. Right now, it's just luck based mostly.

But yes, I agree if it's too common then there will be an overload of HQ mats and make NQ stuff go away but I am confident they can find the balance to make them rare enough yet not unobtainable.

The other question is if you have all HQ items but 1, do you have a change at HQ or not at all? The way I read it it's not at all.

i don't think people should be guranteed HQ. if you do a raid or w/e and get the HQ's items for you and your LS you have no reason to go back and play that content again, you'll end up with dead zones which hardly anyone ever enters, if your familur with XI i'm going to use Sky/Sea/Dynamis as a example, there are still a select few that return and continue playing the content (me for one) but for the most part it was a waste of server space. i'm gonna be flame'd for that comparison i bet ^^, what you need is a reason to keep going back enjoying the content. and if no guarentee on a HQ item is one way to do it so be it.

also in a way i see it's taking somting away from the game, it's the uncertainty that makes games enjoyable.

From Yoshi-P's post.

"Basically, in order to synthesize an HQ final item, HQ versions of every ingredient must be used. Players are guaranteed to synthesize HQ items if all the ingredients used are HQ. However, it will be very difficult to obtain HQ versions of all ingredients."

Edit: if very difficult to obtain = dynamis HQ itmes, then most ppl orher then a very very select few are not even going to bother. felt i need ot add another XI referance cos for some reason they annoy some XIV palyers

[Arcell]

I kinda get this but you need to think of the big picture. Not everyone will be able to afford HQ gears or HQ mats to craft HQ gears even if it is more profitable. So there will still be a market for NQ gears for the average player who is low on gils. The rarity (as stated by Yoshi-P) of the HQ mats will make it so that it is rare and valuable to gather and craft the HQ gears but the majority of the mats available will be NQ.

Not only will people not be able to afford the HQ mats but it may also be inherently more difficult to complete the synthesis with HQ materials. Making a HQ finished item should be more difficult, especially since if you do succeed you are guaranteed a HQ finished item.

[Amineri]

Regarding the 'auto HQ finish item when all HQ ingredients are used'

I agree with Arcell that completing the synthesis when all HQ ingredients are used should be more difficult. Not impossibly difficult, but enough so that a simple "spam standard synth" isn't going to be enough. Make the players sweat and work a little to make sure that the synth is successful.

For those of you around in closed beta, the increased quality from ingredients USED to make the synthesis steps more likely to fail. It was to the point where HQ mats were worth LESS then NQ mats, because starting with 300Q pretty much doomed the synth if you were an equal rank crafter. So, SE changed the system so that Quality from mats didn't increase difficulty, but earned quality still did. Going forward, quality increase will be irrelevant for finished items, so please re-instate the increased difficulty of the synth!

Another aspect of this change is that it is not as severe as people are making it out to be. The ability to 'touch up' for finished item already makes getting an HQ result from a finished item far far easier then getting an HQ result from a material/part synthesis.

On the one hand, the process of HQing a finish item is easier, because there is no luck-factor involved in the final step.

On the other hand, the process of HQing a finish item will be harder, because EVERY ingredient must be HQ now. Ponder this for a moment. How many crafters use a +3 Oak Composite Bow when making trying for an HQ Crab Bow? Not many. Instead, they pick out those ingredients that are easier to get HQ, leave the others NQ, and let repetition and random chance result in the desired +3 item. This system does away with that and requires an HQ ingredient at every slot.

By pushing more of the challenge to making HQ ingredients, it also increases the impact of HQ gathered materials, thus letting gatherers play in the economy, too (as I mentioned in my previous post).

[Sorel]

On the one hand, the process of HQing a finish item is easier, because there is no luck-factor involved in the final step.

On the other hand, the process of HQing a finish item will be harder, because EVERY ingredient must be HQ now. Ponder this for a moment. How many crafters use a +3 Oak Composite Bow when making trying for an HQ Crab Bow? Not many. Instead, they pick out those ingredients that are easier to get HQ, leave the others NQ, and let repetition and random chance result in the desired +3 item. This system does away with that and requires an HQ ingredient at every slot.

My initial instinct would have been to make the percentage chance of HQ-ing a Finshed Product equal to the percentage of ingredients that are HQ. So if you have all HQ ingredients you get the 100% HQ, but if you only have half HQ ingredients you only get 50% chance to HQ.

[MariyaShidou]

No, this is how it goes:

Hmm, I want to make a HQ doublet. Oh, wait, I'm not 20 ranks above the recipe, so I can't. I'll just go buy it from the wards instead.


You forget that NQ gear has cheaper materials than HQ gear and this is key. Cheapness of materials is what will keep NQ gear competitive. The flaw with the current system is that a low rank crafter cannot compete with a high rank crafter because they turn the same materials into different products.

The Dodore Doublet is r50 Recipe. I'm interested in whoever make that HQ Dodore, because he's a hacker by being r70 Leatherworker!

And I made a Banneret Lance +2 (R50 Recipe as well) at R44. That's the main reason why I lag out grinding Goldsmith after that, because I already get my goal without having to reach cap.