The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Alberel]

BRD and MCH actually have two different contributing factors for their lower damage output and it's honestly easier to explain and understand if you know how things worked when 2.0 originally launched.

When ARR first released BRDs had comparable damage potencies to the other ranged DPS jobs on their skills. Their actual weapon damage was slightly lower, however, to compensate for their mobility. Melees had to constantly dodge out of melee range and thus lost damage, casters had to constantly stop casting to reposition and thus also lost damage. BRDs never had that problem. Their rotation was never interrupted by anything so they had lower weapon damage to compensate. The compensation for their utility skills at the time was simply the damage reduction whilst maintaining a song.

Now, when the player base reached the first turns of coil en masse a problem quickly emerged: parties were always taking two or three BRDs and usually only one melee just for the limit break. With multiple BRDs they could rotate songs and essentially maintain infinite resource regeneration for the entire party. For progression groups this was a godsend and trivialised a lot of content since healers could use their spells incredibly inefficiently and just spam the big heals. This also meant SMN and BLM were getting the shaft as parties just wanted to stack BRDs for everything. Why take a caster DPS when BRDs did just as much damage and gave infinite MP and TP to the party?

That's when BRDs got nerfed. Their potencies were severely crippled across the board. The devs needed to make it non-viable to take more than one BRD. The nerf to the job's damage output needed to be severe enough that it wasn't worth stacking them for their songs any more. That is why BRD's do so much less damage than the other jobs. Yes, other jobs have utility skills but I don't think you understand just how game changing it was to have multiple BRDs rotating songs... Nothing compares to the utility a BRD brought. They were that good.

Now with Heavensward out and the new skills I think people are getting confused about how things are balanced. Wanderer's Minuet is a way to give BRDs and MCHs back the damage they lost to compensate for their mobility. They can choose to sacrifice their mobility and get a damage buff that makes up for the lower weapon damage. Now it's arguable that the buff they get from using the skill isn't enough which may need attention, but I see many people thinking that the skill should put their damage on par with a SMN or BLM and this shows a lack of understanding of why the job does lower damage in the first place. WM is not meant to counter the potency nerf they got for their songs. BRD and MCH will always have to do lower overall damage than SMN and BLM simply to prevent parties stacking the jobs again in future.

That's really all there is to it. You can argue as much as you like about how unfair you think it is but we'eve never seen parties stacking other jobs for their utility the way they stacked BRDs prior to their nerf. Clearly parties do not think the utility those other jobs possess is enough to warrant stacking them for it, hence BRD utility is superior by far and the devs were justified in nerfing them to compensate for it.

Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel may need a buff, and I can understand the players that are unhappy with the new BRD play style but these two jobs will never be on par with the other DPS jobs. Sorry if you don't like the facts but that's just how it is.

[Syzygian]

Because they bring their own utility... It's not hard to understand... You would bring a DRG for it's debuffs, party buffs (yes you have them) and damage dealing. How is that different than doing the same for BRD? I like how it's always "my utility is not needed at all, BRD's have regen and that is totally needed all the time!"... Pfft who doesn't bring a dragoon for dismbowl and +15% crit buff?

Parties are quite happy not to take any of the "support dps" with them... So their utility is more necessary than yours how exactly?

Oh right... They arn't... Bringing a Dragoon for all of these reasons and saying the only reason to bring a BRD is for songs is disgustingly hypocritical.

You are no more "at risk" over any ranged job... I would argue even less so.

You're getting extremely salty about something that you really should be happy about. Ranged support DPS jobs have their place in the balance of the game.

You didn't finish reading what I was posting. All non-BRD/MCN utilities are really luxuries, not necessities. You NEED party-wide TP/MP regen to get through 90% of the endgame content that has been in this game thus far. When was the last time you ever saw a wipe blamed on the lack of a Mantra or Trick Attack? Never. Dragon Kick maybe, but that was really only ever in the case of world/server 1st t13 progression and now its irrelevant since that debuff is no longer exclusive to MNK. Even Mr. Happy's group didn't have a MNK (they sure as hell had a BRD though). That being said, almost any party mechanic is a group effort and if you're playing with people that are not managing their TP/MP properly, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Melee DPS are absolutely more at risk since they are required to favor the most hazardous area of any encounter, that is, within melee range of the boss, to do top DPS. Moreover their DPS halts the second a mechanic requires them to move away, whereas yours keeps on truckin'. Literally the only exception I can think of to this rule is bosses with programmed, targeted mechanics at ranged DPS, such as T7. The freedom of movement you have while not being magnetically drawn back to one spot is a huge benefit.

But all of this is irrelevant anyway, since if you play a BRD or MCN and did any research before choosing to main that job, you know you're playing a support class. MCN are new, so I don't know, but I've seen BRDs do OBSCENE dps. You have a ridiculous number of offensive cooldowns, your DPS stops for next to no mechanic, and your utility is second to none. There are encounters in the game where BRDs can out-DPS melee just because of the sheer number of times a melee DPS may be required to stop and move away. Its crazy that I'm having to compliment the job so highly to argue against you, but its true. And honestly, the fact that you have to -oh god- stop doing sick deepz long enough to lend your party a hand, is really something you should take pride in instead of succumbing to the same toxic attitude so many other DPS have where their damage comes before their own life and the well-being of the party.

You're a support DPS, that's the way squeenix designed it, just go with it, and be the best BRD evar. I don't know how the buffs in heavensward effect this, but this is an argument that predates 3.0. If WM is really THAT bad I'm sure the cries of the players will be heard and they'll fix it somehow just like they've done with every job that was broken.

That being said, you chose to play the job, its not like the hand was dealt to you unfairly or randomly. If you're the type of person that likes seeing a few big fat numbers on the screen, play BLM. If you like seeing a crap-ton of small numbers, play MNK. You wanna support your party, play BRD. Its all about personality types really. Maybe BRD/MCN is not the job for you.

[Edellis]

Now with Heavensward out and the new skills I think people are getting confused about how things are balanced. Wanderer's Minuet is a way to give BRDs and MCHs back the damage they lost to compensate for their mobility. They can choose to sacrifice their mobility and get a damage buff that makes up for the lower weapon damage. Now it's arguable that the buff they get from using the skill isn't enough which may need attention, but I see many people thinking that the skill should put their damage on par with a SMN or BLM and this shows a lack of understanding of why the job does lower damage in the first place. WM is not meant to counter the potency nerf they got for their songs. BRD and MCH will always have to do lower overall damage than SMN and BLM simply to prevent parties stacking the jobs again in future.

That's really all there is to it. You can argue as much as you like about how unfair you think it is but we'eve never seen parties stacking other jobs for their utility the way they stacked BRDs prior to their nerf. Clearly parties do not think the utility those other jobs possess is enough to warrant stacking them for it, hence BRD utility is superior by far and the devs were justified in nerfing them to compensate for it.

Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel may need a buff, and I can understand the players that are unhappy with the new BRD play style but these two jobs will never be on par with the other DPS jobs. Sorry if you don't like the facts but that's just how it is.

+10, thank you. The problem with the complaining is that people have tunnel visione when they discuss Bard and its viability because of its damage output.

Minuet definitely needs a buff because it's only actually better than off-stance by a tiny percentage, and only under the most optimal of conditions. But there's no reason to assume they should buff either playstyle to be competitive with the other classes when they bring so much to the table during raids.

Wanderer's Minuet was required for them to ever consider giving Bard any more damage, especially when they're likely going to become a guaranteed spot in the new raids for their songs regardless of their damage.

At this current point, Bard's damage definitely hasn't scaled very well at all with the enemies in the game. But once that changes i doubt people will stop complaining. It's never going to be DRG or BLM level.

[Ryaz]

Personally, I think the label "Support DPS" is just really stupid. My ninja has five abilities to help the group (Goad, Trick Attack, Dancing Edge), and the two enmity abilities. My MCH has six, of which the physical and magical are mutually exclusive, meaning only three can be used at any one time.

So, I say we look at damage. I know everyone decries MCH and Bard's low potency. Players also seem to forget our increased action damage trait. That makes that 200 potency Cleaner Shot equal to 240. Slap on ammo and it's 244. And I'm not sure how Gauss Barrel interacts with Action Damage, whether it's additive or a multiplier (the latter would make the ability even worse), but if additive, Cleaner Shot is then equal to 288% potency, which is actually pretty damn good. Add in your 94 potency from rook turret (it also gets the 20% damage increase from action damage) and damage on paper looks pretty good. 382 potency with.

The problem with MCH, though is that GB is supposed to be our "positional". We give up mobility for extra damage. However, the loss of auto attacks, which are about 70 potency is not made up for by the low potency and extra attacks that Gauss brings. If we had auto-attacks, I think we'd be almost fine. The other issue is the RNG. There's too much down time between ammo and the RNG nature of our procs kills us during that down period. And if Gauss barrel is multiplicative with Action Damage, then that's a problem as well.

With a few changes I think we'll be fine.

[Underdog2204]

Snip

No, you are misunderstanding. Salty? Nope... Lost faith most people can actually think for a bit? Definitely...

There is no such thing as "support dps", if there is only BRD fits that role as there is zero reason to take a MCH over one... (not like any of you notice this problem) None at all, they offer no damage boost outside of a worse trick attack, and their regen is lower than BRD's and is totally stationary. How the hell is that in any shape or form "support"? It's a cruddy dps you are trying to shoehorn into this imaginary role.

Not one person has been able to answer this simple question because it is impossible to answer with your mentaility and shows the major flaw in all your thinking... So you all just ignore it and say "nope support deepz" like parrots.

How is that a class? It isn't, its a thing only one does.

Ohh AST can give party wide buffs should we make a class up other than healer for that? Lets nerf their actual heal output even more coz they are support healz! No-one will want WHM or SCH because 2 AST can do both and offer major dps buffs! Oh wait we stop when such arguments go beyond Dex classes huh?


Somehow you all have got it into your head that Dex ranged are this made up role that only BRD can do, it's their mechanics specifically, it's what makes them BRD's... It is not a whole new role!

You are vastly overstating the amount of danger melee classes are in compared to ranged during fights too because it suits you. No matter how untrue it actually is -_-

A bard HAS to sing foe to compensate it's lower dps. You should absolutely sing foe + batte voice right at the start of a fight. You are in fact a casters buff bot. Just like a white mage is a heal bot.......just like a tank is a ....tank..

If a healer needs mana regen before bards mp has regained after the initial foe then disband party.

brd and mcn are "support dps". Now more than ever. You might wanna get used to that...rip your manic ego I guess xd

Not saying it doesn't, but here we go... Why is MCH considered a buff bot the same as BRD then? Last I checked they didn't get Foe's... What is your excuse for that? How do they "cast Foe's to compensate for low damage". Hmm they do get something worse than Trick Attack though... Wow...

At least I look at everything and don't just go "nope support deepz!"

The fact you are just classing them both as the same thing is quite telling -_-

Nothing MCH brings justifies them being called a "support dps" nothing at all, yet here you are trying to do so under a veil of "I know it all" and saying a job just over a week old is the same thing as one that is 2 years old... "Now more than ever"... really now... Even their cross class skills are damage buffs, not so much as a self heal...

It's unfortunate MCH shares the same damage type as bard, if they were melee or caster with the same skill set we would not even be arguing this.

So please clarify what exactly a "support dps" is? Other than being unfortunate enough the be Dex ranged with some situational skills?

Using your own examples, a tank has a skillset full of things for holding agro and mitigating damage, a healer has skillset for restoring HP, buffs and damage reduction, a support dps has a skillset of... Ok you finish this one. The best I can come up with is a skillset of mostly damage dealing skills (with overly nerfed damage output) and being useless outside of a few skills... Unless you are MCH then you are usless pretty much all the time but have playstyle much more complex... Huh how odd.

Here, I went through what I think is the actual purpose of MCH, and made a thread about it like I said I would in another post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-and-Thoughts

Finally someone who has looked at MCH rather than think it is BRD!

The issues you mentioned are exactly the problem, they went for "group play/bit of everything" ignoring the fact that you are barely ever in a group and most of the time you are only in a group of 4. No this is not "support" it is more "jack of all trades" which just does not work well at all with game mechanics, especially since the skills shared with other classes are the most situational and ineffective skills in the game.... How often do people see BLM cast lethargy? Exactly...

With such a small group you are a hinderence much more than help, this with zero payoff no matter how well you play and (seemingly) weighted RNG makes the whole job very unrewading. Ignoring the fact sharing recast timers just seems lazy design over combining them and giving another skill tbh....

There are stories on this forum about healers refusing to heal MCH because they are a "weak link" etc.

These are problems alot of people seem to be ignoring and just saying "support"...

"Well ok support with what exactly...?"

"Oh you dont take machinist? You've got two off-tanks though..."

"Ok... Have fun at endgame stuff! I'll be shouting encouragement in FC chat!"

*Goes to cry in a corner*

A bard is only ever going to sing Ballad to help the healers, or Foes to buff the casters. Paeon allows them to AoE better, sure, but it's still a DPS decrease that's best used when you have other TP users to benefit. The songs provide 0 real benefit to the Bard itself as a DPS class. 2 of them decrease your damage, 1 of them doesn't benefit you at all, and all of them are self-dps decreases because of the cast time.

4/5 of your lv30-50 Bard abilities provided ZERO benefit to the one singing the song outside of party assistance.

This makes sense and I could possibly agree with it.... I won't though because again it is trying seperate a buffs depending on class... A buff to benefit people is a buff and every dps has access to them... Ninja's cannot use Goad on themselves btw. I would not be suprised if the cast time is removed from WB completely though, and thereby give bards their own version of cleric stance.

Still waiting for someone to answer my question how this applies to MCH to make it a "support dps" though, rather than this just being what makes BRD unique...

Guess they don't like being shown how bias and wrong what they claim is...

[Alchemii]

-snip-

So I can understand where your coming from, and I agree with most of what was said. However I think you missed the real issue here. WM and GB are meant to increase DPS at the cost of mobility, however the skills aren't doing that at all. Now keep in mind I have been playing as MCH and not BRD, what I know about it comes from the BRDs I know, most of which are actually good at it. From my own experience, and what I've been told, the lose of auto-attacks and adding a casting time onto all the skills actually lowers both jobs already low DPS. This is why MCHs have taken rapidfire > GB, then removing GB as soon as their done with it.

Now all that being said MCH has bigger issues right now, so we're getting the flood of people complaining about everything with MCH. While I think that's the only issue I've ever heard anyone complaining about with BRD.

-snip-

Here, I went through what I think is the actual purpose of MCH, and made a thread about it like I said I would in another post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-and-Thoughts

[Alberel]

So I can understand where your coming from, and I agree with most of what was said. However I think you missed the real issue here. WM and GB are meant to increase DPS at the cost of mobility, however the skills aren't doing that at all. Now keep in mind I have been playing as MCH and not BRD, what I know about it comes from the BRDs I know, most of which are actually good at it. From my own experience, and what I've been told, the lose of auto-attacks and adding a casting time onto all the skills actually lowers both jobs already low DPS. This is why MCHs have taken rapidfire > GB, then removing GB as soon as their done with it.

Now all that being said MCH has bigger issues right now, so we're getting the flood of people complaining about everything with MCH. While I think that's the only issue I've ever heard anyone complaining about with BRD.

Like I said in my post they may need buffs and changes to solve that as it seems the skills don't actually reverse the mobility compensation properly. I haven't personally played the jobs beyond 50 yet so I don't claim to know the state of the job's damage compared to others. I was just trying to shed some light on what the purpose of Minuet and Gauss Barrel is, and also what people should not be expecting them to do. Based on the sheer volume of feedback on the forums though I imagine some changes will be be coming, it's more a question of when at this point.

[Scyris]

There is also the fact in bards case, where were supposed to support, but my question is.. with what? The songs are situational at best and rarely get used, So we have this big dps loss even without using mages ballad and paeon.. why? Especally when said songs are rarely used. If we had like a +10% dmg song that effects everyone but the bard, that we could ALWAYS keep on with no penalty, then I would say we are support, but in the current state were just a gimped dps that has some barely used situational things.

[Edellis]

Personally, I think the label "Support DPS" is just really stupid. My ninja has five abilities to help the group (Goad, Trick Attack, Dancing Edge), and the two enmity abilities. My MCH has six, of which the physical and magical are mutually exclusive, meaning only three can be used at any one time.

Because the vast majority of those are just you helping yourself while secondarily helping the team.

A bard is only ever going to sing Ballad to help the healers, or Foes to buff the casters. Paeon allows them to AoE better, sure, but it's still a DPS decrease that's best used when you have other TP users to benefit. The songs provide 0 real benefit to the Bard itself as a DPS class. 2 of them decrease your damage, 1 of them doesn't benefit you at all, and all of them are self-dps decreases because of the cast time.

4/5 of your lv30-50 Bard abilities provided ZERO benefit to the one singing the song outside of party assistance.

There is also the fact in bards case, where were supposed to support, but my question is.. with what? The songs are situational at best and rarely get used

what?

[Dante_V]

At the end of the day whether you feel the statement is invalid is your opinion. The ability to utilize utilities like group MP/TP regens and other things comes at the cost of damage for those using it. Hence the reason that bards/machinists have lower general dps is because of this making the initial statement that these classes "do less dps because they have support abilities" completely valid. They also have ranged abilities which plays into the decision to lower their overall dps in favor of increased movement.

If they were to remove all of the buffs and make them completely stationary, the dps increase wouldn't be substantial enough to bring them into raids vs the melee/caster dps. The support songs/buffs are the reason they are brought to the raid and remain vaible, not overall dps.