o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[tachikoma]

people are worried about what will happen to super rare +3 weapons if they get lumped in with current +2's. What about when new jobs get released and the current top weapons get all outdated? didn't they say the new jobs would be both more restrictive in cross classing skills but in exchange they get access to new stronger gear/weapons/skills?

I would think when they do eventually move to a NQ/HQ only system the current gear will all be outdated and the min/maxers will have a new set of gear to work on entirely.

(I do have a +3 crab bow and +3 baneret so dont' think I am just saying this because I want a +3/2-+1/nq merge)

[NoctisUmbra]

Likewise I will be a very pissed off camper if I see my +3 items devalued to the same level as easy to make +2s. Your +2 will have to become an NQ for the sake of balance, but of course we all know you'd love a free crab bow +3 so anything but making your +2 just as good as a +3 won't be good enough.

There's about 20 times as many +2s as +3s on my server so you're either going to nerf the rarity and have to nerf the stats on the HQ with it or you'll have to price casuals out of the HQ market. I can see the latter happening. Currently casuals buy/make +2 products, soon you won't be able to afford the HQs.



I don't know about your server but on mine a +1 is worth little more than the price of NQs. I can't even sell my +1 crab bows at 150k. Like I said to Vesper, +3s are the only items that should be HQs.



Indeed, and none of these changes will get them crafting either. It's a case of "I don't like you having fun without me so I don't want you to have fun, I'm taking my ball home!".

There really is no need for that. Four tiers of quality items are going to be consolidated to 2 tiers. Sure, everyone can get all personal and say "oh no, my +3 is much too valuable over those guys with the +2s" or "oh no, I spent a lot of time gathering HQ mats and did many trials to end up with my +2, and I won't accept it becoming NQ now" but people need to get over themselves.

You seem to suggest that +2s becoming HQ just like +3s will devalue your +3? You have no idea to what extent a bonus HQ will have over NQ. No idea whether it is closer to the current +2 bonus, +3 bonus, or something even greater.

One has to think logically. One should consider more than their personal efforts and gains.

As the current system stands, one can achieve a +1 result without using any HQ mats or even using Careful Synthesis even once. You can simply Standard it to completion, then Touch Up repeatedly and can get a +1 quite easily.

To achieve a +2/+3 final result however, HQ mats become almost necessary since quality needs to be above 100/200 to even have a minor chance - and generally you want Quality above 300.

You can see a clear difference there between NQ,+1 and +2,3. It fits in quite well with the upcoming change of needing HQ mats to make HQ final products as well.

Based on this logic, it's just as silly for +2s to become NQ as it is for +1s to become HQ.

We'll see what happens.


PS: I still see most of the people complaining to have quite obvious misunderstandings of the changes brought up in the post.

You will not be able to make HQ mats just by having all HQ ingredients. That is reserved for final products. So, as an example, 4 HQ Iron Ores will not result in an HQ Iron Ingot 100% of the time. Based on Yoshi-P explicitly saying HQ materials will be very difficult to obtain, I wouldn't be surprised if it took at least as much effort to make an HQ material after that patch is it does to make a +2 now.

[darkstarpoet1]

PS: I still see most of the people complaining to have quite obvious misunderstandings of the changes brought up in the post.

PS: I still see most of the people supporting to have quite obvious misunderstandings of the changes brought up in the post.

a crafters job is to craft the item. yes, alot of us farm our own items so having to spend 5x the amount of time doing this boring battle systems in place now farming materials to be able to get back to what i enjoy is stupid. making a iron ingot is easy now and will be easy then. what was difficult to get now was a hq part that needed multiple hq items. that part of the complexity is gone and was the most rewarding for myself and many others.

getting the hq parts then getting high quality and getting the hq finished item on touch ups was a good feeling. now if i get a hq ingot i will be assured i get a hq final piece of gear. this shows that the dev team has no idea of what the crafters actually enjoy about the system. they also have no clue of what the reviews on this game actually talked good about. the armory system and crafting system were the 2 things that got good reviews.

[NoctisUmbra]

PS: I still see most of the people supporting to have quite obvious misunderstandings of the changes brought up in the post.

I'm sorry, but you failed to point out any misunderstandings I have about the changes brought up in Yoshi-P's post with your statements below. So... really? Cleverly switching it back on me without any back up substance?

a crafters job is to craft the item. yes, alot of us farm our own items so having to spend 5x the amount of time doing this boring battle systems in place now farming materials to be able to get back to what i enjoy is stupid. making a iron ingot is easy now and will be easy then. what was difficult to get now was a hq part that needed multiple hq items. that part of the complexity is gone and was the most rewarding for myself and many others.

getting the hq parts then getting high quality and getting the hq finished item on touch ups was a good feeling. now if i get a hq ingot i will be assured i get a hq final piece of gear. this shows that the dev team has no idea of what the crafters actually enjoy about the system. they also have no clue of what the reviews on this game actually talked good about. the armory system and crafting system were the 2 things that got good reviews.

However, it will be quite difficult to craft an HQ Ingot. The challenge is not being removed. It is being relocated.

There were plenty of crafters that wanted more of a sense of control over HQ results. Getting all HQ mats and having Quality go as high as 500 or 600 with a combination of skills, patience and luck just to see it persist in an NQ result while some crafters could get very lucky and achieve a +2 without even using more than 0 or 1 HQ mats is a major issue. The presence of Luck is much too dominant.

I'd much rather a system where obtaining all the necessary HQ ingredients is very challenging, but once that goal is achieved you can enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

What you see here is not a misunderstanding. It is a difference of opinion.

[Kartisan]

Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis - Bad - this made synthesis in this game fun and interesting, the hunt for parts, making the components yourself, pouring your soul into each item. also more realistic where each item is made of many parts some of wood of metal of cloth each made by their own discipline, while leveling the crafts is slower than DOW/M the interrelations of the different crafts both for subcomponents or sub-crafts, for the first encourages the buildup of crafters into groups and for the second defines "high level" or "master" crafters, a goal to achieve. For the subcraft receipes the only major impedence that is not of choice is when the guild leves for crafting requiring a subcraft should have their receipes replaced as those are leves.

Revisions to Materials and Intermediary Materials - Bad , see above

Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements - Bad see above

Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements - Bad, at r30 i was able to buy all treasties under the old guild mark system where marks were rarer, now I am hoping and praying that the dev team will come out with new treasties for me to spend marks on. Treasties are like a little joy a sense of small accomplishment on the long road of crafting, please dont take that away, dev team. The improvement I see is that for guildleves on the leve itself that is viewed at the counter, any requirements for treasties and guild support should be listed, requiring guild support is fine as it encourages leveling the craft in its hometown and encourages player distribution accross the cities.

Simplified Color Customization - Good if done right, the dyes should not be changed and removed out of the alchemist domain, just when the colors are applied maybe should be changed if the color variations of gear say blue cloth and black leather, where blue cloth can only be mixed with black leather then place the dyes in the final step or leave as is. but really the best would allow any color combination to exist, which requires the dev team to make all the color variation textures ie blue cloth and red leather or pink cloth and black leather.

[darkstarpoet1]

I'm sorry, but you failed to point out any misunderstandings I have about the changes brought up in Yoshi-P's post with your statements below. So... really? Cleverly switching it back on me without any back up substance?



However, it will be quite difficult to craft an HQ Ingot. The challenge is not being removed. It is being relocated.

There were plenty of crafters that wanted more of a sense of control over HQ results. Getting all HQ mats and having Quality go as high as 500 or 600 with a combination of skills, patience and luck just to see it persist in an NQ result while some crafters could get very lucky and achieve a +2 without even using more than 0 or 1 HQ mats is a major issue. The presence of Luck is much too dominant.

I'd much rather a system where obtaining all the necessary HQ ingredients is very challenging, but once that goal is achieved you can enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

What you see here is not a misunderstanding. It is a difference of opinion.

it was brought up months a much easier solution, but because they want to go down to the lowest common denominator it hurts mid and high level in that craft. ok i do agree with you on the luck issue being too much of an influence. that was very frustrating. now follow me through a simple list of fixes that would have made it better overall and if you disagree point out the flaws.

fix 1: part fixes: in low level crafts needing a part(not basic strap, but like leather shoulder guards on a weaver synth) be removed and replaced by a basic item(such as a leather strap). as the crafts become more complex in level the need for parts from other crafts would become more acceptable, but as far as a low level synth with people just starting crafts it is not needed. items made by other classes in low level synths should be commonly used items such as buckles, straps, yarns, cloth, and squares.

also there is no need fore a hammer that is a r21 synth to require a hammer head that requires a r40 to make. lowering the level required to make the parts to be around the same level. if the hammer is r21 all parts should be @25 or below. you should never have to look for someone 20 levels above you to make a synth for an item you can make.

fix 2: adjustments to the mini game: this one i am not sure how to really improve. there's many things that can be done to make it more fun that hitting standard, but to me a more quest based leveling through the guilds or people requesting items would be a nice way to do so. say you are bored of grinding and wanted to do something different you could go to the guild and see if they had generic guild tasks or if a real player has requested an item for your rank.

say you wanted a cotton robe(red), but none were in the wards you could go to the guild and place an order with them to have it made and the npc would have a set price for you there. the crafters could come to the guild and check out the order list and say ok i can fill this order. it would be a nice way to actually have crafters you have never met be able to assist with the items that are not for sale and would be a win win both sides.

yes, you would still have grinding, but i just feel other options like the ones above would work for getting rid of the constant grind as well as help the overall economic process. the guild could give bonus sp for filling their orders. the bonus sp and the gil paid for the gear orders wold seem to be an incentive for the crafters to do such.

fix 3: changes in the hq system: right now luck does play too much of a role into the hqing of items. to me alot of that has to do with the role that hq parts have in the equation. right now if you put in all hq mats you can start off with quality of 300+. to me the items do not make a difference in the final product. it should be skill driven.

change 1. have all the bonuses from hq parts to the final quality be removed(the final item is not really high quality because of the pieces) and have all of the bonuses go into the durability. so you would start off with 200 durability and 0 quality to start the synth instead of 200 durability and 300 quality.

change 2. now that no matter what items you start off with you have 0 quality the actual final quality would depend on pure skill and not standard bashing and then touch ups.

starting with 0 quality the results could look like

0-99 quality after finishing = sure nq with a chance for hq+1
100-200 quality after finishing = sure hq+1 with a chance for hq+2
200-300 quality after finishing = sure hq+2 with a chance for hq+3
300+ quality after finishing = sure hq+3

that would still have the luck factor as a minor factor in the chance you may get a higher hq, but you would be able to know that you're not going to get multiple 600 quality nq's. it would allow the skills you have learned and your actual ability to determine the outcome of the synth.

this is the type of changes i could see working. i am not against change, but i just wish changes were more logical. these are full classes and to continue to be they will actually have to make it to where skill is the determining factor instead of who wants to go out and farm more items.

edit: i know super long book i posted. i am sorry for that, but you said you wanted suggestions on how to fix them so i took the time to type them out.

[Xenor]

[COLOR="navy"]There really is no need for that. Four tiers of quality items are going to be consolidated to 2 tiers. Sure, everyone can get all personal and say "oh no, my +3 is much too valuable over those guys with the +2s" or "oh no, I spent a lot of time gathering HQ mats and did many trials to end up with my +2, and I won't accept it becoming NQ now" but people need to get over themselves.

You seem to suggest that +2s becoming HQ just like +3s will devalue your +3? You have no idea to what extent a bonus HQ will have over NQ. No idea whether it is closer to the current +2 bonus, +3 bonus, or something even greater.

You missed the point. If all +2s were upgraded to have the same stats as +3s in your best case scenario then you've now got 100 of these weapons on the market instead of half a dozen. This is what devalues them. I make about 8 +2 crab bows for every +3 yet you seem to suggest they should all be converted to be of equal value.

I don't mind a change to the HQ result if done right but current items need to be left alone. Replace them all with better items if need be. I've long been a fan of making every item currently in the game obsolete and starting again with new materials where supply is more restricted. There's way too much iron ore, logs, other ores and whatever else flooded around the market.

It's interesting that the post mentions 4x electrum ore = electrum ingot. I wonder if gold sand/ore is going to become electrum sand/ore and then have an entirely new market for gold when the level cap is increased. Something else I've been a supporter of. But that's probably a translation error.

[Vesper]

the fact that it looks like there is going to be a new tier of crafted endgame gear(cobalt for instance) does give a bit of hope to the fact that the older stuff wont be as important to that effect either

but yeah people will be mad regardless, but one thing to look at, will you hit a bigger crowd by making +1s nq or hq?
i can almost guarentee a small fraction of players carry around +2/3 gear overall compared to +1s, most every hq peice of gear out there is a +1 so HQs would be near non existant under the new system to start if the change hits as such(and the people who worked for those +1s will be mad that they worked for them for nothing)

Will have to see more on this cobalt stuff. But atm its my least favorite. Its just going to be everyone looking the same (again). I think gear needs to have no stats on them whatsoever. Make it so crafters add the stats, new recipes would be new looks only. This way you could effectively mix and match tons of gear for a unique look and then have it statted to your preferences.

[YuriSan]

The personal gains and efforts arent really as personal as u suggest.
I am not the only person that had to go through a lot to get my +2 gear.
More people had to go through it.
So what i am suggesting isnt all that personal. nothing for me to go over really .

[NoctisUmbra]

You missed the point. If all +2s were upgraded to have the same stats as +3s in your best case scenario then you've now got 100 of these weapons on the market instead of half a dozen. This is what devalues them. I make about 8 +2 crab bows for every +3 yet you seem to suggest they should all be converted to be of equal value.

I don't mind a change to the HQ result if done right but current items need to be left alone. Replace them all with better items if need be. I've long been a fan of making every item currently in the game obsolete and starting again with new materials where supply is more restricted. There's way too much iron ore, logs, other ores and whatever else flooded around the market.

It's interesting that the post mentions 4x electrum ore = electrum ingot. I wonder if gold sand/ore is going to become electrum sand/ore and then have an entirely new market for gold when the level cap is increased. Something else I've been a supporter of. But that's probably a translation error.

It is true that +3s will be devalued and +2s will gain value in a sense, but that much is expected. It all depends on the amount in the market.

Yoshi-P already addressed this, apparently. +1s are definitely becoming NQ, however +2s they are looking into the distribution in the game and how many +2s there are before they make a decision.

Essentially the new NQ/HQ system will come with it's own balance of number of HQs to NQs in the market. What they will want to do is sway +2s in the direction that most closely matches their projected ratio.

In the end between +2,3 it's not about difficulty so much as abundance. So looking at it from this perspective, it's not so much about the difficulty as it is the availability.

I was under the impression +2s were quite rare as well, but I suppose if they truly are making it so NQs are very common and HQs are extremely rare - it would make sense to have only +3 become HQ. It all depends on their projection of the NQ/HQ balance.

Also, I honestly don't think the electrum ore thing is a translation error. They are simplifying things afterall, so I won't be surprised if it's just ore > nuggets/ingots/rings directly without mixing and matching of other ores.

Generally when it comes to a game, I'm all for immersion - but never at the cost of better gameplay. Parts and complicated recipes favored immersion, but made the crafting system convoluted and cumbersome. I look forwrad to these streamlined changes.