Competative dps for BRD and MCH

[Underdog2204]

Ok so there are a few threads going over the problems with both these jobs at the moment.

Now I do not want to repeat them here but I think these problems stem from the fact they are gimped for no reason other than the fact the stand at range and deal physical damage.

They are dps classes first and foremost, they are not support or debuffers. They are placed in queues as dps, their gear is for dps and nothing outside of a few abilites offer utility. This profile fits on every single dps job in the game but for some reason the idea these two jobs dps shoud be intentionally gimped constantly for being "supporters" is a fallacy.

This post sums it all up perfectly -

I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot. Shouldn't they be expected to pull their share of the DPS responsibility?

"BRD and MCN can buff the other DPS in the party."
-Well, sure, but doesn't DRG and WAR do the same thing? BRD gets a penalty for buffing others by lowering their own. MCN can only do it for 15 sec out of 90. DRG keeps theirs up 100% (ideally.) MNK can boost healing effectiveness for the party. NIN can boost damage for the party for a time, as well with Trick Attack.

"BRD and MCN can always attack and don't have to stop moving."
-Neither does my DRG... Yes, I know I'm limited to melee range, but having cleared T1-13 on my DRG, having to stay out of range during times when the boss was still targetable and attackable was EXTREMELY rare. With two different gap-closeres, my DRG never stopped hitting. Besides, my SMN is able to keep up an extremely high percentage of its damage while on the move, as well. Not to mention the fact that, guess what, BRD and MCN have to stop moving now, too, for WM and GB.

"MCN has so many other abilities to affect the fight."
-In theory, but not in practical application. Almost every boss in the game is immune to stun, silence, knockback, heavy, and bind. That's five of our abilities we can't use in a boss fight, and almost all of our utility. Sure, we get a defensive cooldown that nerfs the boss, but so does SMN...

"BRD and MCH can give tp/mp to other classes."
-So can NIN. On top of that, I was always expected to manage my own TP as DRG and MP as SMN. Yes, our BRD was there to sing for our healers, but since when does that increase our DPS? The times when our BRD played a TP song to help regen the TP of a DPS who died, it never increased my ability to deal damage as my DRG. Having to stop dealing damage to help a party member, sure, that sounds 100% logical. But when I'm not helping my healers, why am I still sitting at the bottom of the list, undisputed?


Yes, BRD and MCN are different from the other DPS, as they should be. I don't expect every job to play the same. I DO expect, however, that every role be able to perform on the same level. All healers should be able to keep their party alive. All tanks should be able to survive getting their face smashed in. All DPS should be able to keep up their share of the required DPS checks.

The days of MMO's being filled with large, open-world bosses with the ranged DPS standing up on a rock to height-mitigate damage, are gone. No longer do the melee have to constantly 'joust' to avoid constant spam of 360-degree AoEs. Why are we still treating ranged DPS like this? Having played both ranged, caster, and melee dps in T1-13, the argument that the backline has to move less is complete garbage. I had to move MORE as a BLM and SMN than I ever did as a DRG.

So, why are we okay with DRG and SMN parsing extremely high, while BRD and MCN parse so much lower?
Outside of giving MP to our beloved healers, why should we be allowed to attend raids?

It seems this has growing support since the problems now just highlight this fundemental problem to an extreme degree.

I figured I'd post this to see how much support a change to this actually has.

[SovereignAegis]

"I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot."

AMEN!

Getting past Bismark at present is extremely difficult as is, (It is one massive MASSIVE dps check) at present more than 1 Bard EXCLUSIVE OR machinist will not make it past this boss without EXCEPTIONAL coordination.


They take up a DPS slot, despite their utility... it doesn't matter how much utility you bring if the team can not get past the DPS checks. Which are obviously EXTREMELY tight at present.

[NovaLevossida]

The absolute slowest I've ever seen the third trial in Heavensward go was when we had 3 bards. They really should just make Minuet / Gauss give you great DPS for being in those stances and having cast times associated with it.

[SovereignAegis]

The absolute slowest I've ever seen the third trial in Heavensward go was when we had 3 bards. They really should just make Minuet / Gauss give you great DPS for being in those stances and having cast times associated with it.

The cast times are punishing enough as is, taking two super mobile classes and making them immobile is a slap to the face.

Removing auto attacks ontop of that is just... sadistic/cruel.

Yeah now we aren't mobile (which was a feature of the classes) and we lost our auto attacks ontop of it, it is too high of a cost.

[ChespinXL]

The cast times are punishing enough as is, taking two super mobile classes and making them immobile is a slap to the face.

Removing auto attacks ontop of that is just... sadistic/cruel.

Yeah now we aren't mobile (which was a feature of the classes) and we lost our auto attacks ontop of it, it is too high of a cost.

I believe you've noticed that the optimal MCH rotation does not require any casting at all.

[Leonus]

Well, I think brd and much should do more dps than what has been reported.

Unfortunately, I also believe ranged dps should never match melee dps ( in single target ).The moment that happens, melee dps become irrelevant and a hinderance. No one cares that there are four ranged dps in a party. Everyone has space to operate. No one likes 4 melee dps in a party unless it just for "funsies" .

[Panasync]

Well, I think brd and much should do more dps than what has been reported.

Unfortunately, I also believe ranged dps should never match melee dps ( in single target ).The moment that happens, melee dps become irrelevant and a hinderance. No one cares that there are four ranged dps in a party. Everyone has space to operate. No one likes 4 melee dps in a party unless it just for "funsies" .

Let's boot Summoner and Black Mage quick! Whenever there has been a raiding DPS check early on in content, yes you'll see 4 melee, hell you'll probably see 4 monks.

Let's also not forget the mechanics they add in fights includes ranged stuff, we're not getting a free ride sitting 10 yalms out.

[Leonus]

Let's boot Summoner and Black Mage quick! Whenever there has been a raiding DPS check early on in content, yes you'll see 4 melee, hell you'll probably see 4 monks.

Let's also not forget the mechanics they add in fights includes ranged stuff, we're not getting a free ride sitting 10 yalms out.

I don't see many of those. It's not even CLOSE to the norm. What will become the norm though is if rdps can go dead even with mdps, groups will not EVER take a mdps if a rdps is available. That will be commonplace, just like back in 2.0. Why bring mdps when a rdps can do the same with and handle mechanics better (overall)? The only way I would compromise as a player is to make melee AoE as strong as rdps AND make all melee gap closers usable every 2.5 seconds.

That way we can handle mechanics far away from the boss like rdps and get back instantly, whenever and from wherever. That would make things even.

[Panasync]

I don't see many of those. It's not even CLOSE to the norm. What will become the norm ...

What about Summoner and Black Mage? What is your excuse for their existence and DPS? Back in 2.0 we also almost exclusively used 2 PLD parties, the whole debuff to the LB was in response to job stacking. Not to mention fight design has changed to not just be a bunch of up close mob AoE's but RAIDWIDE mechanics that everyone deals with, not just melee. If people are stacking ranged because a fight is so punishing to melee, that is a fight design issue, not a job one.

Check any DPS content that was close to release (Turn 8 is an example) where raiding DPS is an absolute necessity, in an effort to push these DPS checks people would use multiple monks because of lack of gear (was only obtainable by doing the dungeon with weekly lockouts).

Do a search for Turn X world first, count the monks, because they're typically stacking at least 2.

[Athism]

As a BRD main, my heart hurts. I'm at a cross roads, idk if i should level a new dps class or stick with brd. Knowing SE, it will take a while before they fix brd, and i would like to progress BISEX/ RAVEX.


Fixes: Well i believe a few things could do it:25% WM(might be asking too much but increase ws/dot potency as well), enable autoattacks during WM and eliminate dmg penalty for songs(why? because the whole reason for it was BRD's ability to move and dps, that's no longer an issue). Also OGCD timers reduced(SW).

I feel this way based on what SE did for blm. Yeah blm can't move and cast but when they do cast they do burst dmg. Brd should be the same way seeing they turned us into casters. I do love our burst now, but we just can't sustain the dps. I don't want brd to be king dps, i just want us to be able to contribute.