Shadow Wall vs Vengeance!

[Faytte]

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Everything said

^ This is 100% accurate. I tanks for 2 years as a warrior (up to t13 pre echo). Basically if tank health at a particular phase is X (any number) then a tank buster will generally hit for X+30% so without some extra mitigation, you tend to die. A warrior increasing their health up 25% is effectively a layer of mitigation and works as effectively as grit/shield oath. I.E

if i have 10K health, and a 13K attack is coming in, then a paladin will take 10.4K damage, and a warrior will still take the 13K but would have had 12.5K health (basically, both are death by a similar margin, and if both pop 1 cd, they are suddenly NOT dead but a similar margin).

Edit: Simpler math is, pld/drk take 20% less damage against a pool of numbers, where warriors have 25% more in that pool of numbers. A value applied to the pool is more or less the same % of the pool.

[Lorielle]

But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

That's nice and all when it comes down to trash mobs and stuff. But when it comes to MT on a Raid? It's not that simple. The damage is still there. The good mitigation skills are not.

[Ditto]

Hallowed Ground > Holmgang ~= Living Dead

Hollowed Ground > Holmgang > Living Dead

Holmgang doesn't instant kill you like Living Dead does if your HP isn't topped off completely (Benediction doesn't work) throughout the duration of walking dead.. I like the idea of the skill, I really do, but the way they executed it, it's a crappier Holmgang, only executed the same way hollowed ground is. (Don't need a target, doesn't bind you, etc.)

It could definitely use a change, but they haven't fixed Holmgang yet, so I have no hope for Living Dead getting many adjustments either. I only hope they don't butcher the skill and make it some generic oh shit button like Holmgang is, and instead try to keep it more unique to a Drk's theme, and closer to their style of combat.

On pure mitigation, DRK is generally below WAR and PLD, but not cripplingly so. Souleater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor help make up the shortcomings somewhat. But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

It's to the point where I'd say Drk IS cripplingly below PLD. Less so below War, but War is still leagues ahead, especially right now seeing as it's Warriors time to shine, and they seem to be the most demanded tank currently, even in MT situations.

Personally I feel as if Drk doesn't do that much more damage than a Paladin could do to where it'd actually be considered an advantage. Drk's have nothing on a War's DPS either, especially if the War knows how to stance dance. In a Drk's case, we cannot enable Grit without using a GCD, and a retarded amount of MP. The MP requirement of which I always thought was just silly.

[Kaedan94]

Hollowed Ground > Holmgang > Living Dead

Holmgang doesn't instant kill you like Living Dead does if your HP isn't topped off completely (Benediction doesn't work) throughout the duration of walking dead.. I like the idea of the skill, I really do, but the way they executed it, it's a crappier Holmgang, only executed the same way hollowed ground is. (Don't need a target, doesn't bind you, etc.)

It could definitely use a change, but they haven't fixed Holmgang yet, so I have no hope for Living Dead getting many adjustments either.

Benediction not working is a bug. The problem is that Bene just "resets HP" it doesn't "cure" as far as the programming is concerned. So it's not removing the debuff (although someone in another thread claimed that a bene they received actually did remove the debuff). I'm sure that will be fixed.

It's to the point where I'd say Drk IS cripplingly below PLD. Less so below War, but War is still leagues ahead, especially right now seeing as it's Warriors time to shine, and they seem to be the most demanded tank currently, even in MT situations.

Personally I feel as if Drk doesn't do that much more damage than a Paladin could do to where it'd actually be considered an advantage. Drk's have nothing on a War's DPS either, especially if the War knows how to stance dance. In a Drk's case, we cannot enable Grit without using a GCD, and a retarded amount of MP. The MP requirement of which I always thought was just silly.

Again, I don't think it's cripplingly lower than either, nor is WAR "leagues ahead". PLD is definitely the "safer" option for MTing, but end-game content won't be impossible for DRKs. OT they have the advantage over PLD and aren't far behind WAR. For min/maxing groups, it does leave DRK in a bad position at the moment since those groups likely won't want a DRK.

However, I do want to say that a PLD in Shield Oath and a DRK in Grit, the DRK does far more damage than the PLD. Far more.

[Faytte]

PLD is a better OT. It provides
10% damage debuff that is unique, vs one that isnt/applied by monks
Can heal targets for 1200 potency heals TWICE before break(3.5K non crit at i160)
Provides melee a 10% health shield(tank health)
Can cover the MT if a damage share is needed (MT in trouble).

Secondly, the PLD that has been tanking with Xeno posted on reddit he is keeping up with wars ST damage (not multi, obv).

Darkside 15% damage buff is compared to 10% (over time) for FoF. DRK have 1900 potency of OGCD attacks per minute (ignore dark passenger as its trash for the mana, as well as Salt the Earth because it takes 2 clicks and a delay--its not really an OGCD attack, eats a gcd). A paladin has 1100 ogcd per minute. Taking a 2.0 delay weapon with -no- attack speed/skill speed, you are adding another 1500 potency of damage over a minute from sword oath. Does Paladin out dps DRK? I doubt it--but you saying 'far more' is not based off math and parses, just placibo and gut feeling.

[Faytte]

A paladin in shield oath is doing .88 damage (-20% + 10% from FoF over time) vs a dark knight is doing .92 (-20% + 15% from dark side). When you equate in oGCDS, a Dark certainly is going to do more damage while MT'ing but per above(especially at the loss of sword oath), but in general -- in progression raiding, no one is going to care about the tanks damage--your job is to survive busters and make the healers job as easy as possible so they can heal the dps that do the *REAL DAMAGE*. That said, I'm glad with the direction of paladins, i think everyone is going to prefer them as an MT and are kind of a mandatory bring along at this point. Take least damage, can heal themselves or others in a pinch, bring the most utility. Dark might compete for farm tanking.

[Ditto]

PLD is definitely the "safer" option for MTing, but end-game content won't be impossible for DRKs.

Just as nothing was impossible for a Warrior in 2.0. All tanks can fill any role, but it doesn't mean it's going to be a clean fight, or that the class is going to do it's job as MT effectively enough to relieve stress and worry on the rest of the group. I mean there is a reason people preferred Paladin as a MT over a Warrior.

OT they have the advantage over PLD and aren't far behind WAR. For min/maxing groups, it does leave DRK in a bad position at the moment since those groups likely won't want a DRK.

However, I do want to say that a PLD in Shield Oath and a DRK in Grit, the DRK does far more damage than the PLD. Far more.

Well this confirms it then, you have no idea what you're talking about (Even more so based on your posts in other relevant threads). Nor do you seem to know how the general raid community feels in terms of actually wanting to succeed. Min/Max group or not, if the group wants a Paladin or War as a MT because they make the fight more smooth, they will look for those classes in specific. Better tanking kit = less stress on healers = smoother run = better chance of success.

That is literally common sense, and the Party Finder (And static recruiting PF listings) have always been filled with them.

[Kaedan]

A paladin in shield oath is doing .88 damage (-20% + 10% from FoF over time) vs a dark knight is doing .92 (-20% + 15% from dark side). When you equate in oGCDS, a Dark certainly is going to do more damage while MT'ing but per above(especially at the loss of sword oath), but in general -- in progression raiding, no one is going to care about the tanks damage--your job is to survive busters and make the healers job as easy as possible so they can heal the dps that do the *REAL DAMAGE*. That said, I'm glad with the direction of paladins, i think everyone is going to prefer them as an MT and are kind of a mandatory bring along at this point. Take least damage, can heal themselves or others in a pinch, bring the most utility. Dark might compete for farm tanking.

Shield oath is -30% damage, not 20%. Darkside can be kept up indefinitely, FoF cannot.

[Kaedan]

Just as nothing was impossible for a Warrior in 2.0. All tanks can fill any role, but it doesn't mean it's going to be a clean fight, or that the class is going to do it's job as MT effectively enough to relieve stress and worry on the rest of the group. I mean there is a reason people preferred Paladin as a MT over a Warrior.

There's no stress for any content but Coil (and whatever the new raid is going to be).

Nor do you seem to know how the general raid community feels in terms of actually wanting to succeed. Min/Max group or not, if the group wants a Paladin or War as a MT because they make the fight more smooth, they will look for those classes in specific. Better tanking kit = less stress on healers = smoother run = better chance of success.

I'm well aware, but thanks for the ad homs instead of actually validly arguing a point.

Yes, a lot of the "raid community" are min/maxers. That's very common. And so yes, it is going to make it harder for DRKs to participate in raids until SE does something to make DRKs perception better, as I said. That doesn't make DRKs "cripplingly worse" than PLD or WAR. They are right in the middle of a PLD or WAR, which is seen as a negative by min/maxers.

[Rbstr]

Shield oath is -30% damage, not 20%. Darkside can be kept up indefinitely, FoF cannot.

Shield oath is 20% damage reduction and damage dealt reduction. Grit and Shield Oath are identical.