Shadow Wall vs Vengeance!

[Ditto]

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

Of course it is, but when there's more negatives to Drk than there is positives, there is obviously a problem. Skills aren't the only thing that make a class tanky, yet a class as a whole is made up of their skills, and other mechanics that are class specific. Each one ff those things is an individual piece of what makes up a class, and determines how that class will perform.

Without looking at pieces in specific, you overlook everything.

Really makes me laugh when people just go listing out a bunch of skills Drk has and then say nothing is wrong. Talk about ignorance.

[Lorielle]

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

Err...I feel like this statement contradicts itself. You tell the person to argue that X Class if Inferior to X Class. But then if they try to bring in points to justify that, it's a poor way to argue it?

[Kaedan94]

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

Yup, I did mistype Foresight, but since both jobs have access to it, the typo isn't really relevant. And yes, I did forget Holmgang, apologies. Though since Living Dead and Holmgang are similar, again it's not really a big deal.

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

And I do agree Shadow Wall needs some tweaking, but only because it's a direct copy of Sentinel minus the 10% bonus Paladin has from their trait (making Sentinel 40%). Personally I like the idea of adding a small "Darkness" absorption shield or something.

But that wasn't the point. The point is you can't just take two skills out of context, put them in a vacuum and make judgments. You have to consider the whole package.

[Marveth]

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

There is a vast difference in healing and max health increased. Max health increased can be compared to mitigation due to the way that raids work in FFXIV. Yes I compare to raids because that is where the difference in skills between the classes will really show.
The way raids work in FFXIV currently is that bosses have tank buster hits that does massive damage which can 1hit KO or close to if you are not weary. Damage mitigation prevents this from happening, just as having more health over all can prevent you from dying to these devastating attacks. In between these big hits the tanks are not really that stressed and healers spend most of their times healing other people. So yes, skills that add to max HP has to be taken into consideration like Defiance and Thrill of Battle. Skills that only heals however, not as much.

[Faytte]

.
Everything said

^ This is 100% accurate. I tanks for 2 years as a warrior (up to t13 pre echo). Basically if tank health at a particular phase is X (any number) then a tank buster will generally hit for X+30% so without some extra mitigation, you tend to die. A warrior increasing their health up 25% is effectively a layer of mitigation and works as effectively as grit/shield oath. I.E

if i have 10K health, and a 13K attack is coming in, then a paladin will take 10.4K damage, and a warrior will still take the 13K but would have had 12.5K health (basically, both are death by a similar margin, and if both pop 1 cd, they are suddenly NOT dead but a similar margin).

Edit: Simpler math is, pld/drk take 20% less damage against a pool of numbers, where warriors have 25% more in that pool of numbers. A value applied to the pool is more or less the same % of the pool.

[Faytte]

-Foresight: Defense does very little to actual damage mitigation. Research this before posting about it.

-Shadowskin: This is inferior in every way to Ib for raiding. You can have IB up for every tank buster with a little skill, and infuriate for any failures.

-Dark Dance: Can't dodge busters, a 30% chance to reduce a parryable attack by 20% is pretty crap.

-Dark Mind
This is a saving grace and actually good.

-Shadow Wall
Inferior to vengeance(duration, cd), inferior to sentinel(strength)

-Living Dead
I laughed at this. The same mechs that insta kill insta kill both (Tested in ads/allagan rot). 10 seconds of letting your healers heal the party vs stressing about you (since benediction doesnt count as having healed your full hp)

[eudidimuss]

Really Talathion this guy again?!? FYI people he use to post dumb stuff like this on the EQ2 berserker forums, trying to get some sort of change. In the end he just became a joke on that forum...

[Kaedan94]

Ok, let's look at this more comparitively:

Inner Beast > Shadowskin = Rampart
Shield Oath > Grit > Defiance (though the damage penalty for DRK is less, meaning faster fights)
Bulwark > Raw Intuition > Dark Dance
Dark Mind = Unique, no real comparison
Vengeance > Sentinel > Shadow Wall
Hallowed Ground > Holmgang ~= Living Dead

On pure mitigation, DRK is generally below WAR and PLD, but not cripplingly so. Souleater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor help make up the shortcomings somewhat. But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

[Lorielle]

But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

That's nice and all when it comes down to trash mobs and stuff. But when it comes to MT on a Raid? It's not that simple. The damage is still there. The good mitigation skills are not.

[Ditto]

Hallowed Ground > Holmgang ~= Living Dead

Hollowed Ground > Holmgang > Living Dead

Holmgang doesn't instant kill you like Living Dead does if your HP isn't topped off completely (Benediction doesn't work) throughout the duration of walking dead.. I like the idea of the skill, I really do, but the way they executed it, it's a crappier Holmgang, only executed the same way hollowed ground is. (Don't need a target, doesn't bind you, etc.)

It could definitely use a change, but they haven't fixed Holmgang yet, so I have no hope for Living Dead getting many adjustments either. I only hope they don't butcher the skill and make it some generic oh shit button like Holmgang is, and instead try to keep it more unique to a Drk's theme, and closer to their style of combat.

On pure mitigation, DRK is generally below WAR and PLD, but not cripplingly so. Souleater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor help make up the shortcomings somewhat. But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

It's to the point where I'd say Drk IS cripplingly below PLD. Less so below War, but War is still leagues ahead, especially right now seeing as it's Warriors time to shine, and they seem to be the most demanded tank currently, even in MT situations.

Personally I feel as if Drk doesn't do that much more damage than a Paladin could do to where it'd actually be considered an advantage. Drk's have nothing on a War's DPS either, especially if the War knows how to stance dance. In a Drk's case, we cannot enable Grit without using a GCD, and a retarded amount of MP. The MP requirement of which I always thought was just silly.