Shadow Wall vs Vengeance!

[Rbstr]

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

[Ditto]

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

This.

People who are looking at the 'big picture' as they call it, are blind to how Dark Knights really work. We're Paladins without a shield, and with a hell of a lot less mitigation. Those individual pieces MAKE UP the big picture people seem to be so focused on.

When you go into an encounter, you don't pop everything you have right off the bat, you use individual skills when you need to. And in that case, when something isn't adding up right, it's incredibly apparent.

[Timat]

This.

People who are looking at the 'big picture' as they call it, are blind to how Dark Knights really work. We're Paladins without a shield, and with a hell of a lot less mitigation. Those individual pieces MAKE UP the big picture people seem to be so focused on.

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

[Ditto]

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

Of course it is, but when there's more negatives to Drk than there is positives, there is obviously a problem. Skills aren't the only thing that make a class tanky, yet a class as a whole is made up of their skills, and other mechanics that are class specific. Each one ff those things is an individual piece of what makes up a class, and determines how that class will perform.

Without looking at pieces in specific, you overlook everything.

Really makes me laugh when people just go listing out a bunch of skills Drk has and then say nothing is wrong. Talk about ignorance.

[Lorielle]

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

Err...I feel like this statement contradicts itself. You tell the person to argue that X Class if Inferior to X Class. But then if they try to bring in points to justify that, it's a poor way to argue it?

[Timat]

Err...I feel like this statement contradicts itself. You tell the person to argue that X Class if Inferior to X Class. But then if they try to bring in points to justify that, it's a poor way to argue it?

Cherry picking one skill as you entire argument is not getting your point across well.

If you want to argue that DRK is below the others then ARGUE THAT POINT

Do not harp on Vengence and Shadow Wall alone though...sure you may use that as a point but making that you central argument...that shadow wall needs to be changed cause vengence is not good.

[Faytte]

You cant apply meaningful damage debuffs as an OT, and you are restricted as an MT to a proc that has a 10 second gap in its uptime. Your other buster mechanisms are rampart(shadowskin) and shadow wall(30% with sentinel cd). Everything else you get, is cross class. Foresight doesnt do diddly on busters, conva and awarness are givens.

You have enough cooldowns where you can go through 2 busters with 1 meaningful cooldown each, and then based off the fight MIGHT have shadow skin up, MIGHT not. You certainly wont have wall up again anytime soon. Warriors will have an IB up for ever buster, vengeance is cake. Paladins actually arnt all that dismillar but have incredibly good 'other' cds--Sheltron is useable on every buster (30sec cd), Bulwark is leagues better than shadow dance (since with base shield rates, you are getting into 'assured to proc' territory).

Not sure what else to say? Its a fine tank for dungeons?

[Lorielle]

Cherry picking one skill as you entire argument is not getting your point across well.

If you want to argue that DRK is below the others then ARGUE THAT POINT

Do not harp on Vengence and Shadow Wall alone though...sure you may use that as a point but making that you central argument...that shadow wall needs to be changed cause vengence is not good.

That's fine and dandy. I can see that.

The original post was not citing anything about DRK being bad compared to other classes. Just simply that Vengeance was much better. We can all see why. It was then brought into "Looking into the Bigger Picture" where it slowly brought the others skills into light(which still are meh in comparison overall save Dark Mind). And here we are.

[Kaedan94]

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

Yup, I did mistype Foresight, but since both jobs have access to it, the typo isn't really relevant. And yes, I did forget Holmgang, apologies. Though since Living Dead and Holmgang are similar, again it's not really a big deal.

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

And I do agree Shadow Wall needs some tweaking, but only because it's a direct copy of Sentinel minus the 10% bonus Paladin has from their trait (making Sentinel 40%). Personally I like the idea of adding a small "Darkness" absorption shield or something.

But that wasn't the point. The point is you can't just take two skills out of context, put them in a vacuum and make judgments. You have to consider the whole package.

[Marveth]

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

There is a vast difference in healing and max health increased. Max health increased can be compared to mitigation due to the way that raids work in FFXIV. Yes I compare to raids because that is where the difference in skills between the classes will really show.
The way raids work in FFXIV currently is that bosses have tank buster hits that does massive damage which can 1hit KO or close to if you are not weary. Damage mitigation prevents this from happening, just as having more health over all can prevent you from dying to these devastating attacks. In between these big hits the tanks are not really that stressed and healers spend most of their times healing other people. So yes, skills that add to max HP has to be taken into consideration like Defiance and Thrill of Battle. Skills that only heals however, not as much.