Job and Subjob system instead of classes?

[Kiote]

I don't think the OP understands the Job System. It's it's only disguised as a whole new set of Jobs and Abilities. It's actually an easy mode way for dumb people who can't figure out how to build a class.

[Gennosuke]

It's been said before many many times and it will be repeated here. For SE to get rid of the Class System and replace it with a Job System everything that the Class system touches would have to be re-calibrated. Buildings in cities, NPCs and dialogue in the game, the lore of the game itself, and not to mention we'd all be reset back to square one making whatever you accomplished in this game moot. Crafting is part of this Class System as well, and with a Job System that would be relegated back to the crafting system of XI. A system that most people don't like and hardly use. SE adding this Job System to go alongside the Class System is their way of appeasing the group that's been crying/shouting/screaming/annoying for it to be put in place.

I would mostly agree to this point, there would certainly be significant effort needed and perhaps some sacrifice and that could be their way around the situation but.. if this is the reason, don't you think it would have made more sense and been a simpler task for SE and addressed many of the concerns to just rename classes to Jobs and make them more defined and unique?
The issue here is not what their intention is, but how they addressed it. I can't really see both systems being utilized properly but rather ultimately hinder each other. I really feel keeping 2 systems in place will just be a source of complication, redundancy and introduce future problems. SE is just opening a can of worms when the base Armoury system isn't even efficient and far from perfected yet.
To get this Job system of real use and value, alot of ongoing effort and attention will need to be poured into the battle system, mobs and content in general to make it worth using and keeping the old system just as significant.

To comment on the last part of your post though, since i have seen this reasoning few times already. I find it funny that on one hand the white knights are blaming the crying/whining groups for asking for and bringing in the job system..and then ironically enough, on the other hand they stand by this new duo-system like their life depended on it (because..well SE came up the new idea so it must be good), to the extent where they rush to flame such threads and throw silly anti-XI rants.

I don't think the OP understands the Job System. It's it's only disguised as a whole new set of Jobs and Abilities. It's actually an easy mode way for dumb people who can't figure out how to build a class.

I disagree, i don't think it has anything to do with 'dumb' people, many players have complained time and again at how simplified this game is becoming, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to slap abilities in their list and become a versatile player.
I think there are various other reasons why SE would think of introducing this. For one, the Armoury class is way too loose and undefined to be able to actually form a reliable party on the fly to tackle tougher mobs; Not only do we have a fail Party Search system, but to add onto that, the Armoury class exacerbates this issue further with an extra layer of Shadowiness and imperceptibility. I mean do you really plan to interrogate every player in a full party of 8 to find out their exact abilities before you form each party? Not only is it inefficient and impractical but can even come across as offensive when you plan to ditch a person because they are missing a certain ability from a secondary class.
Job system as in XI or FFT would never have this issue because simply put, they would just give away what a person can and can not offer by name. Granted, The new job system can address this issue now. Yet i still disagree with 2 systems in place as mentioned in point above. No need for complications, one simple yet deep system sounds like the smart and logical thing to do.

I really believe SE just needs to focus on fixing the core features of the game before expanding too far, i really don't think they can afford to risk taking more damage and lose whatever remaining players they have if more new features fail.
By their own words, this is their final chance to fix the game before PS3 release in hope of attracting the masses back, and so.. i voice my concern.

[Leeloo]

I still think you're making it seem more complicated than it's going to be. Mainly with the way you talk about 2 different systems, when I don't think that's really where it's going. The jobs just being specialties of the already existing classes. Actually making it 1 deep system like you're wanting.

[Gennosuke]

The way I understood it was that the new jobs are simply more focused play styles of the original classes. Monk being a specialty that you can earn as a pugilist rather than being a completely new job to level from 1-50(for example). That's how it came off to me in the battle reform blueprint anyway:

If that's the case then that takes care of some of your concerns up there. It doesn't seem as complicated & redundant when I look at it that way.

Thanks for your input, i agree this scenario does make the most sense out of them and it does address the concern of leveling up for example which would have definitely been a pain.
Yet again, my question as posted before, why not make the current classes these jobs instead of having 2 different modes? Surely, it can all be combined into one mode. Classes can be renamed to Jobs, and job names and can be replaced with the traditional job titles.

The only nice explanation is that SE is trying to be creative by adding this extra layer. I just cant help but feel it will introduce more harm than good in the long run. Time will tell.

[Leeloo]

Yea it's tough to say for sure until we actually see it. I don't mean to sound like I'm 100% confident in it being perfect right away either. = D

As usual I can see how it could work from what I understand from that blueprint, but what I see(speculate) doesn't always match up with what SE ends up doing. I guess as far as what they're called, it may be like people have mentioned in the other similar thread. The way they're doing it allows it to fit into the current game easier without having to mess with a lot of other stuff.

[AmyRae]

Yet again, my question as posted before, why not make the current classes these jobs instead of having 2 different modes?

The problem is it would be outrageous (to some if not most) to have all their year-long efforts placed in the current "build-your-own-class" system wiped out forever and replaced with a rigid, role-specific class/job system (that most people want) in its place. If the game were being redeveloped without being online, and a total wipe was possible, maybe it wouldn't need this convoluted two-tiered approach. Alas, this is the hand we are dealt with.

And so, we continue with an armory class system that will take a back seat to (and co-exist with) a new well-defined-role job system. The neat trick will be in making the two somehow work together so they don't seem completely at odds with each other, but I'm not sure how that will be accomplished.

[Gennosuke]

The problem is it would be outrageous (to some if not most) to have all their year-long efforts placed in the current "build-your-own-class" system wiped out forever and replaced with a rigid, role-specific class/job system (that most people want) in its place. If the game were being redeveloped without being online, and a total wipe was possible, maybe it wouldn't need this convoluted two-tiered approach. Alas, this is the hand we are dealt with.

And so, we continue with an armory class system that will take a back seat to (and co-exist with) a new well-defined-role job system. The neat trick will be in making the two somehow work together so they don't seem completely at odds with each other, but I'm not sure how that will be accomplished.

Yes, i agree with what you say. This is my feeling regarding their approach too.
I suppose it's a big impact on current playerbase to just replace the job system with what in reality i feel is a fail legacy Armoury system, and they may well be playing the card of flexibility to give it justification. I wouldn't be surprised if they abolish the Class system completely in the future and this turns out to be a transition state. I think this would please the majority who aren't playing the game now but dissappoint many of current players.
In the end, reality is whatever brings the best in the game and attracts most players outside of current playerbase will come to pass. We're more guinea pigs in beta phase now. I personally would hope for this outcome, i think it's in the best interest of the game, it worked better and i think they realize that well now.

All speculation though, we'll see.

[Khal_Drogo]

I still think you're making it seem more complicated than it's going to be. Mainly with the way you talk about 2 different systems, when I don't think that's really where it's going. The jobs just being specialties of the already existing classes. Actually making it 1 deep system like you're wanting.

The reason he's saying this Leeloo is because the job system won't *replace the class system, if it's just added to the game. Many ppl may choose to continue playing on their classes in favor of more "versatility," when what it really amounts to is little more than an undefined job. In these kinds of instances, it will be even more difficult than normal to guarantee what kind of player you're adding to your pt. Imagine if you do a search for a gladiator, and you ask him/her to come tank. They say yes, but when they get there, you realize that they only have Provoke equipped. They don't have Taunt equipped; they don't have Defender equipped; they don't have any Curing actions equipped; they don't have Second Wind equipped; or anything else that even remotely resembles a "tanking" class/job. All they have is a bunch of Melee actions equipped from LNC and MRD or something. You kindly ask them to put on some other actions, and they say: "I don't have those, and I keep hate good enough with DD'n."
Then, you're forced to argue with them about how it's much more of a pain to have to constantly spam them in cures because they're taking hits like a naked DoM, and you don't want to have to play *only Healer on your "healer" class; and so on. It's an endless cycle of ppl wanting to play their class an extremely "unconventional" way that doesn't really work out anyway because it's too hard for SE to maintain balance with so many combinations available to each class.

We all would absolutely LOVE the idea of infinite masteries and cross-class options. However, it's just not a practical. So, what is the solution? Do we put our trust in SE, and hope XIV doesn't fail us again? Do we put our trust in Yoshi-P's unparalleled genius, and hope that he can bear this burden all on his own w/o our input? Or do we make suggestions based on evidence from previous experience with other MMOs? Personally, I'd have to go with the latter.

[Khal_Drogo]

It just occurred to me that there's a possibility that the jobs may be the only "entities" capable of reaching beyond 50. One of Leeloo's previous posts sparked the idea. If that were the case, it may not be as bad as I thought. I know you guys will hate the comparison, but please try to stay objective.


Think of FFXI. Imagine all that you were able to do at lvl 50. We had close to half of everything in the CoP expansions available to us. We had plenty of NMs we could solo at lvl 50. We could practically roam wherever we wanted to w/ a party of lvl 50s w/o toooo much danger, and so on. So, imagine a much more balanced system like we have in XIV, where lvl 50 means much, much, much more for us than even 75 ever did in XI. It's possible that classes will be set aside for all *current end-game content, and as level caps are introduced, jobs will be the only "entities" capable of breaking past the "lvl 50 plateau." So, then, SE won't be challenged with having to maintain balance 1-50 and beyond every single time a job or new class is introduced. Classes will have their own "content;" and jobs will have their own as well. It'd kind of be like adding the cap increase to lvl 99 w/o completely undermining all of someone's hard work. Jobs will make the class content easier (as a party), because they're a bunch of powered-up versions of the current classes (not to mention they're lvl 55, 75, 99, or w/e else is added l8r), but also the DDs can't "cure themselves," the "BLMs" can't Curaga, and so on -so, they have their "weaknesses," but they also have higher levels and stats to fall back on. Meanwhile, classes will make the content easier by offering much more versatility. And when there is limited availability of players, because they're EXTREMELY diverse (or ppl just wanna solo), they won't have any need to look for parties. What do ya'll think?

[indira]

froget sub jobs thats just going to force people to play what they dont want to. the route there going is good now were going to have actual jobs/classes/whatever you want to call them. we been classless since the game was playable and since auto attack were getting an idea of what there going to do.