supervirus more impactful than proshell

[Ghishlain]

I'm curious what you mean by lower potential? Scholar is certainly the more technical job...

I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

WHM is very bread and butter in the grand scheme of things and has an overall lower skill ceiling (and thus a lower potential) versus a SCH (and thus a lower potential).

[Virin]

So much speculation without real numbers yet. Who knows maybe the whm regen bubble of lol is on par with having a regen 2 like potency? maybe ast and sch shields don't stack. maybe pld shields do stack but are based on the heal they receive as to the strength of the shield so a high potency heal will be best for activating it. there is a whole deck of ast cards we don't know about yet. we aren't sure what's a toggle and what's a buff. with all these shields and regens we don't know what they are planning on for content. Does virus and disable stack? Is there really a need to solo heal end-game raid content other than just to say you did? So who cares if a sch can but whm can't? There seems to be a lot more shielding/heals being sent to "nearby party members" aka melee dps/ot. Why? Do we expect a lot of unavoidable aoe damage in new content or do we assume maybe there are mass add phases where lots of people are taking damage?

With so little information there sure is a lot of "talking out one's posterior". We have some press people playing for a bit. Do they play regularly? Did they have time to really get a feel for a class or just try and use skills whether it was an appropriate time for it? Ast seems weak? Did they have time to figure out the class? Sch sure can seem weak even now in easy content they are overgeared for if they never really took the time to understand the class. What kind of dps can we get from an Ast?

Every job role thread is so much speculation and back and forth with not even half the information.

[Risvertasashi]

I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

So much speculation without real numbers yet. Who knows maybe the whm regen bubble of lol is on par with having a regen 2 like potency? maybe ast and sch shields don't stack. maybe pld shields do stack but are based on the heal they receive as to the strength of the shield so a high potency heal will be best for activating it. there is a whole deck of ast cards we don't know about yet. we aren't sure what's a toggle and what's a buff. with all these shields and regens we don't know what they are planning on for content. Does virus and disable stack? Is there really a need to solo heal end-game raid content other than just to say you did? So who cares if a sch can but whm can't? There seems to be a lot more shielding/heals being sent to "nearby party members" aka melee dps/ot. Why? Do we expect a lot of unavoidable aoe damage in new content or do we assume maybe there are mass add phases where lots of people are taking damage?

With so little information there sure is a lot of "talking out one's posterior". We have some press people playing for a bit. Do they play regularly? Did they have time to really get a feel for a class or just try and use skills whether it was an appropriate time for it? Ast seems weak? Did they have time to figure out the class? Sch sure can seem weak even now in easy content they are overgeared for if they never really took the time to understand the class. What kind of dps can we get from an Ast?

Every job role thread is so much speculation and back and forth with not even half the information.

We actually do have answers to some of those questions, but all in all, you're right. No one will really know until the dataminers go to town on the patch and then when the new raids open. That said, the press at the event were FFXIV endgame players before the event. But in the end, it was still a limited preview.

edit: All that said, if people are going to argue WHM is dead (yet again...) before the expansion, I might as well argue it's not ：)

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

In that practical scenario, what is the other healer doing? I don't believe I have mentioned that Scholars can completely eradicate the role White Mage have right now. They're simply getting new spells and abilities to their existing kit that aids them in a weak area. Which would be AoE healing in particular. If Scholars are still maintaining their supportive healer role, not much will change for them. Unless Astrologian AoE healing is so severely weak compared to either healers, I doubt there's a need to blow more than 1 aetherflow for the AoE heal they are getting.

But to the point; Scholars have a supportive healing role with the current meta and very likely will keep it in Heavensward. Especially when undergeared for content and/or progressing. I don't doubt any composition isn't viable, be it whm/ast, ast/sch or whm/sch. But scholars have, without doubt, an edge as supportive healer compared to White Mage and Astrologian. Astrologians have some affinity towards the role Scholars have with the current meta, but nowhere as good. Cards aren't spammable (30s CD according to some document) and Disable, while potent in it's own way, cannot be compared with Virus. Regardless, Astrologian definitely has more affinity for said role than White Mage. So what Nihility posted is very plausible:

The general feeling for a while now is scholar will be the required healer and astrologian and white mage will be fighting for the second spot.

So unless Astrologian healing capacity in severely less than White Mage, that second spot will probably be shared with the two. With severe I meant bad enough that the other healer has to compensate more than they should be doing. However, if Astrologians have a healing kit that can somewhat rival White Mage, the buffing capability of astrologian may be favored over the raw healing white mages possess. Of course, this will all depend on the potency and details of the kit Astrologians will have. Apparently the preliminary patch notes will be announced during a live stream*, so we'll know soon enough. Reminder: I'm not claiming that White Mages are no longer viable, more in the context where Scholars pretty much have a guaranteed spot.

* http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/e70e4ffa10fe619e5e25d3dd59d7ff5f93a77cc1

[NorthernLadMSP]

ASTs have to deal with RNG though. You can't guarantee that you'll buff a party's or party member's DPS at any given moment. In fact, you might just make them or the whole party take a vulnerability up debuff.

Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

[loreleidiangelo]

Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

This. At worst, yes, you won't be "buffing their DPS" if you draw the MP reduction card, the TP reduction card, or the damage reduction card, but there could be arguments that via resource management assistance you are "effectively" increasing DPS with every AST card you use.

I know nobody wants WHM to be ousted from the current progression meta, but unless AST's regen sect is really underwhelming and/or SCH's raw healing buffs aren't as good as we think they are currently, I really do think this might be what happens in hardcore "first"-type groups.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Since astrologian cards became a topic now :P

You'd be surprised at the MP reduction card. The 20% reduced cost would mean a black mage can squeeze in an extra fire during astral fire. That is, assuming they still have a 5-spell rotation during astral fire (with or without the new spell). There is also the thing called Spread. You could put away Bole for incoming tank busters or other situations where you'd need that -10% mitigation.

[Risvertasashi]

In that practical scenario, what is the other healer doing? I don't believe I have mentioned that Scholars can completely eradicate the role White Mage have right now. They're simply getting new spells and abilities to their existing kit that aids them in a weak area. Which would be AoE healing in particular. If Scholars are still maintaining their supportive healer role, not much will change for them. Unless Astrologian AoE healing is so severely weak compared to either healers, I doubt there's a need to blow more than 1 aetherflow for the AoE heal they are getting.

But to the point; Scholars have a supportive healing role with the current meta and very likely will keep it in Heavensward. Especially when undergeared for content and/or progressing. I don't doubt any composition isn't viable, be it whm/ast, ast/sch or whm/sch. But scholars have, without doubt, an edge as supportive healer compared to White Mage and Astrologian. Astrologians have some affinity towards the role Scholars have with the current meta, but nowhere as good. Cards aren't spammable (30s CD according to some document) and Disable, while potent in it's own way, cannot be compared with Virus. Regardless, Astrologian definitely has more affinity for said role than White Mage. So what Nihility posted is very plausible:

Well, I was trying to put SCH in the shoes of a WHM there (pre echo of course...). Yes, another healer can alleviate that load. Ordinarily, a WHM would do most of the HP/S, with the SCH shielding&lustrating for the worst spikes but DPSing every moment the WHM can handle on its own. And there's a lot WHM can do on its own.

If both healers are focusing on healing primarily and not really DPSing... even if that's an AST and SCH combo... then I agree, I think everything will be handled without much issues.

As for Nihility's scenario, I really think that depends on the value people see in a SCH. If it's "can virus/lustrate while DPSing and stance dance to shield busters"... then AST will need to be capable of handling a lot of heals solo.

I don't think supervirus is make or break, as SMNs will have it and ASTs will have an equivalent. Possibly AST will be virtually guaranteed a slot, because it has virus-like mitigation, shields, and party buffs? For all we know, AST might replace SCH better than it replaces WHM. But I don't think any combo of the three healers, as long as classes aren't stacked, will have too much trouble.

We'll see soon XD

Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

Apparently I missed that update. But, even if it can't backfire, RNG is RNG.

[Ghishlain]

No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

In terms of my sentence and generally speaking - a higher skill ceiling means a higher level of technical play which in turn translates into a more rewarding and higher class potential. This isn't always the case, but I think in this particular case it is.

Sleigh put it pretty much down on paper earlier in the first page and I agree with most of their points. Likewise, I also agree that WHMs limiting factor in any long fight is their MP. I've done WoDs as both SCHs and WHMs, playing in a similar style of heavy DPS / off-healing and found the most limiting factor of WHM is their MP pool.

If you look at WHM potency/MP, they're really quite low compared SCH.

Bio = 240 pot / 106 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Bio II = 350 pot / 159 MP = 2.20 pot/mp
Miasma = 300 pot / 133 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Ruin = 80 pot / 53 mp = 1.51 pot/mp

Not comparing Aero because Aero is for both

Aero II = 210 pot / 133 mp = 1.58 pot/MP
Stone II = 170 pot / 159 mp = 1.07 pot/MP

If you compare the math, WHM is incredibly inefficient compared to their SCH counter part. Yes SCH, needs more ramp up time to get full damage, but at the same time in any long fight you're looking for efficiency which SCH has in spades compared to WHM on the DPS department. While WHM total potency over a single GCD when all buffs are up is slightly higher than SCHs total potency (I think it's about 231 pot/GCD versus 217 pot/GCD), SCH will never run into an MP issue with their abilities, let alone the fact that they can Energy Drain for 200+ MP AND their Aetherflow gives them a much higher MP return per minute versus Shroud of Saints. Let's not include the fact that most "normalizing" healing for SCH (Fairy) has a higher potency than Regen, even if you account for the Fairy's lower MND score and WHM being able to uptime Regen w/ Divine Seal for about 40 seconds if they're playing right.

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

So, to TLDR that last bit of math
-WHM HPS about equal to SCH + Eos HPS
-WHM DPS >slightly> SCH DPS, but suffers from HUGE MP issues when they DPS thus limiting their DPS

That being said, I don't think WHM is a dead job by any stretch of the imagination, but I do hope for some helpful buffs come Heavensward to bring SCH and WHM closer together. I think WHM needs better MP regeneration tools. There was a thread earlier about how they should trait Cleric Stance to include means of increasing MP regeneration / decreasing spell costs and I think that's a step in the right direction as WHMs. Also, SCHs bring versatility. This should come at a cost (which will be coming with ANOTHER ability that feeds off Aetherflow). WHMs should have more impact on the field compared to SCH and their versatility.

[Risvertasashi]

Lots of stuff

So, in short, you see a lot of value in SCH's DPS. (And that is OK).

As for HP/S... yes, if you look at the raw parse numbers, that is true. But... have you tried separating out the parse? A *lot* of that HP/S comes from rouse + WD. Which is an awesome AoE heal, but it's not burst and it has limited uptime. A lot of encounter success is having not overall HP/S, but HP/S when and where it needs to be (and lustrate is pretty awesome for that, even though it's encounter throughput is small)

Now SCH (Like WHM) is getting its weak areas shored up. More AoE heals, and it can eat the fairy for a further boost. But then you have to use Aetherflow stacks on that, and resummon the fairy. But using stacks on that AoE heal means less to use for burst single target heals (So you might have to drop out of cleric and plain old aldo/physick more). And if swiftcast isn't up for resummoning, that's more need for aldo/physick healing through spikes until a SCH can get the summon off...

In short... SCH will be able to heal a lot more with its new abilities, potentially replacing WHM, but that's DPS downtime.

I won't argue with versatility. In a pinch, SCH can either shield or focus on pure healing which WHM can't do. But I would see that as more of an asset for pugging or those nights where you need a static replacement...