supervirus more impactful than proshell

[Ghishlain]

I think, looking at what we know about the current skills released, the end line of "which healer composition will be preferred" will come down to raid design. If raid busting damage is light and tank busters are all physical (like most tank busters in FCoB), Supervirus will mean very little in the grand scheme of things. Likewise, if we get a few attacks similar to Gigaflare / Auto-Crit Nerve Gas coming up, Supervirus will be very useful for that. I wouldn't be surprised if S-E designed all the Alex floors to be more beneficial to certain healing pairs versus other (but still clearable by any pair required).

We'll also have to see where the synergies are and how all the new skills mesh with each other. Will AST + SCH shield stacks? Will Disable + Supervirus stack? Will Disable provide an immunity after use to prevent double AST shenanigans? Will Antibody prevent Disable from working? Sacred Soil + AST version of Sacred Soil stack? Etc etc.

Notice how a lot of points above are questions about SCH + AST synergies. WHM is very bread and butter in the grand scheme of things and has an overall lower skill ceiling versus a SCH (and thus a lower potential). However, if SCH + AST don't synergize well, the go pair may just very well be WHM + ???.

Time will tell, and I'm sure we'll all figure out the strengths and weaknesses of each job once level 60 hits the table this week.

Scholar has been king now since day 1 of 2.0. Just now figuring that out? If anything double scholar will be a likely combo for high end progression now that scholar can spread adlo and has a stronger aoe heal and better emergency aoe heals now. Lol at white mage regen bubble.

Still waiting for any proof from your other threads / posts BTW~ When you can articulate your arguments like Sleigh and Velox can, then we might take you more seriously. Until then, good bye/

Although, in reference to the OP... t13 soloheal, didn't a WHM do that before SCH did?

Yes.

[Risvertasashi]

WHM is very bread and butter in the grand scheme of things and has an overall lower skill ceiling versus a SCH (and thus a lower potential).

I'm curious what you mean by lower potential? Scholar is certainly the more technical job...

[Ghishlain]

I'm curious what you mean by lower potential? Scholar is certainly the more technical job...

I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

WHM is very bread and butter in the grand scheme of things and has an overall lower skill ceiling (and thus a lower potential) versus a SCH (and thus a lower potential).

[Risvertasashi]

I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

So much speculation without real numbers yet. Who knows maybe the whm regen bubble of lol is on par with having a regen 2 like potency? maybe ast and sch shields don't stack. maybe pld shields do stack but are based on the heal they receive as to the strength of the shield so a high potency heal will be best for activating it. there is a whole deck of ast cards we don't know about yet. we aren't sure what's a toggle and what's a buff. with all these shields and regens we don't know what they are planning on for content. Does virus and disable stack? Is there really a need to solo heal end-game raid content other than just to say you did? So who cares if a sch can but whm can't? There seems to be a lot more shielding/heals being sent to "nearby party members" aka melee dps/ot. Why? Do we expect a lot of unavoidable aoe damage in new content or do we assume maybe there are mass add phases where lots of people are taking damage?

With so little information there sure is a lot of "talking out one's posterior". We have some press people playing for a bit. Do they play regularly? Did they have time to really get a feel for a class or just try and use skills whether it was an appropriate time for it? Ast seems weak? Did they have time to figure out the class? Sch sure can seem weak even now in easy content they are overgeared for if they never really took the time to understand the class. What kind of dps can we get from an Ast?

Every job role thread is so much speculation and back and forth with not even half the information.

We actually do have answers to some of those questions, but all in all, you're right. No one will really know until the dataminers go to town on the patch and then when the new raids open. That said, the press at the event were FFXIV endgame players before the event. But in the end, it was still a limited preview.

edit: All that said, if people are going to argue WHM is dead (yet again...) before the expansion, I might as well argue it's not ：)

[Ghishlain]

No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

In terms of my sentence and generally speaking - a higher skill ceiling means a higher level of technical play which in turn translates into a more rewarding and higher class potential. This isn't always the case, but I think in this particular case it is.

Sleigh put it pretty much down on paper earlier in the first page and I agree with most of their points. Likewise, I also agree that WHMs limiting factor in any long fight is their MP. I've done WoDs as both SCHs and WHMs, playing in a similar style of heavy DPS / off-healing and found the most limiting factor of WHM is their MP pool.

If you look at WHM potency/MP, they're really quite low compared SCH.

Bio = 240 pot / 106 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Bio II = 350 pot / 159 MP = 2.20 pot/mp
Miasma = 300 pot / 133 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Ruin = 80 pot / 53 mp = 1.51 pot/mp

Not comparing Aero because Aero is for both

Aero II = 210 pot / 133 mp = 1.58 pot/MP
Stone II = 170 pot / 159 mp = 1.07 pot/MP

If you compare the math, WHM is incredibly inefficient compared to their SCH counter part. Yes SCH, needs more ramp up time to get full damage, but at the same time in any long fight you're looking for efficiency which SCH has in spades compared to WHM on the DPS department. While WHM total potency over a single GCD when all buffs are up is slightly higher than SCHs total potency (I think it's about 231 pot/GCD versus 217 pot/GCD), SCH will never run into an MP issue with their abilities, let alone the fact that they can Energy Drain for 200+ MP AND their Aetherflow gives them a much higher MP return per minute versus Shroud of Saints. Let's not include the fact that most "normalizing" healing for SCH (Fairy) has a higher potency than Regen, even if you account for the Fairy's lower MND score and WHM being able to uptime Regen w/ Divine Seal for about 40 seconds if they're playing right.

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

So, to TLDR that last bit of math
-WHM HPS about equal to SCH + Eos HPS
-WHM DPS >slightly> SCH DPS, but suffers from HUGE MP issues when they DPS thus limiting their DPS

That being said, I don't think WHM is a dead job by any stretch of the imagination, but I do hope for some helpful buffs come Heavensward to bring SCH and WHM closer together. I think WHM needs better MP regeneration tools. There was a thread earlier about how they should trait Cleric Stance to include means of increasing MP regeneration / decreasing spell costs and I think that's a step in the right direction as WHMs. Also, SCHs bring versatility. This should come at a cost (which will be coming with ANOTHER ability that feeds off Aetherflow). WHMs should have more impact on the field compared to SCH and their versatility.

[Risvertasashi]

Lots of stuff

So, in short, you see a lot of value in SCH's DPS. (And that is OK).

As for HP/S... yes, if you look at the raw parse numbers, that is true. But... have you tried separating out the parse? A *lot* of that HP/S comes from rouse + WD. Which is an awesome AoE heal, but it's not burst and it has limited uptime. A lot of encounter success is having not overall HP/S, but HP/S when and where it needs to be (and lustrate is pretty awesome for that, even though it's encounter throughput is small)

Now SCH (Like WHM) is getting its weak areas shored up. More AoE heals, and it can eat the fairy for a further boost. But then you have to use Aetherflow stacks on that, and resummon the fairy. But using stacks on that AoE heal means less to use for burst single target heals (So you might have to drop out of cleric and plain old aldo/physick more). And if swiftcast isn't up for resummoning, that's more need for aldo/physick healing through spikes until a SCH can get the summon off...

In short... SCH will be able to heal a lot more with its new abilities, potentially replacing WHM, but that's DPS downtime.

I won't argue with versatility. In a pinch, SCH can either shield or focus on pure healing which WHM can't do. But I would see that as more of an asset for pugging or those nights where you need a static replacement...

[Ghishlain]

-Snip-

As you have rightfully mentioned, a raw HPS isn't important, it's about having the HPS at the right times. With that being said, I do find something seriously disturbing about the fact that a Sch + EOS combination CAN output as much HPS as a WHM. WHMs biggest perceived boon is the ability to output HPS. If a SCH + Eos can do the same HPS as a WHM, there's something amiss. Keep in mind I was doing this HPS with SCH + Eos WHILE outputting 150+ DPS during a pre-P3 progression group pre-Echo. That speaks volumes about SCHs power level right there. If SCH can do 1.2K HPS AND 150+ DPS and a WHM can only do 1.2K HPS and 50+ DPS, that makes the SCH a better contributor to the party dynamic (when looking at purely raw numbers). It should be more like a SCH can do 1K HPS while outputting 150 DPS while a WHM should be able to output 1.4K HPS and go nuts in the healing department.

The funny thing is, T13 is the current hardest heal check in the game, and the fight is almost perfectly structured to make use of all Whispering Dawn CDs at the right times. You'll generally always have Whispering Dawn up for Mega Flare into Rage of Bahamut in P2, you'll always have it up for Mega Flare in P4. You'll also always have Fey Covenant up for P1 and P2 Gigaflare and every shared Ahk Morn. Likewise, you'll always have a Virus for every Giga Flare. T13 almost feels like it was made with the SCH toolkit in mind and I hope this isn't the case for Alex.

With that being said, I hope they continue to design SCH with the current trend in mind. To me, SCH has always been about managing Aetherflow and cooldowns. Everything about a SCH screams less about MP and more about being able to manage your abilities. By adding more abilities to the mix, SCH now have to continue to think ahead in the game and feel where they feel are the best moments to use which abilities. Having ANOTHER ability tied to Aetherflow stacks means there will be more choices to make and more quick thought into your next few actions. SCHs should be about versatility and management. WHM should be about their immediate impact on the field.

[edit] Just to go back to your comment about my value in SCH DPS - it's less I value SCH DPS and more I value the contribution SCH brings to the group and DPS is just one of those factors. SCH contribution feels much higher (when played properly) versus a WHM.

[Spoekes]

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

[tjw]

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

I assume it's more Eos' WD overhealing more than anything. With Fey Illumination and Rouse, her WD heals 500 a tick. Times that by at least 9. 4.5k a tick, Granted, this happens every 2 minutes; usually her WD only does roughly 400 a tick. In total, over 2 minutes, assuming maximum uptime, she heals at least 56.7k, or roughly 475 HP a second. That's also not including her much stronger Embrace during Rouse and Fey Illumination, which, if you're like me, like to manually spam, can also overheal to an extent.

*Numbers are based on my i110 healer alt

[Ghishlain]

If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

It's actually not fishy. We both we're sitting at 1.2K HPS while doing T13 progression at pretty close to i130. We both had 60% over heal because the fight was new to both of us at the time and we were both treating it like we were solo healing until we could find the natural synergies between us and determine where and when we could heal. Once we got over that initial hump and I made the switch to Selene since I knew my WHM could handle most of the AoE heals himself, we got our combined HPS down to 1.6K to 1.7K (SCH = 500, WHM = 1.1-1.2K) and our total overheal down to about 30%-40% (depending on how much accidental damage our DPS took).

With that being said, I don't know the nuances of the parser and what it can and cannot pick up with HPS as, well, I also understand HPS is a very tricky stat in terms of gauging any sort of performance. Instead, we used it as a means to find where we can find efficiencies and tune our heals according.

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.