Ideas for Samurai

[Kenji_Shiratsuki]

My answer to that, is the same as my answer will be to any such question. To hell with XI. this is XIV. It should never try to be XI. (etc..)

You didn't address my statement. A lot people want Red Mage in this game and, so far, the only way it's worked semi-successfully in an MMORPG is as a buff/debuff caster. It was many other things in other games, but in an MMORPG many of those things it was are not possible due to class balancing. I'm not saying this game needs to be like XI, I'm saying that if the Samurai job focuses on impairing mobs, including many ways of landing debuffs on bosses that don't exist for other classes, that being their unique role, like Bards are super-mobile ranged DPS, then what is left to be unique to Red Mage? I think it would be harder to think up a legit role for RDM other than debuffing/support, than it would be to think up something else fitting for SAM. That said, they could share the same role.

[Zophar]

If I were to design it, it would be as a close range DoW dps class, with magical capabilities, and the key to playing it would revolve around balancing weapon skills and magical attacks together possibly weapon skill chains resulting in a boost to your next spell. Something like that. This would be closer in line with what RDM traditionally has been, and would also be a unique style of dps we haven't yet seen in the game.

[ArdorGrey]

My idea for samurai is to make it a parry and counterattack based tank, drawing not only from the fact that it's always been a heavy armor job which was the extent of drk's tankiness, but also from how the class played in bravely default.

I know yoshi said he saw the class as a dps, but once upon a time he also said he could see drk being a dps job branching off of gladiator, so my fingers are still crossed.

Melee dps have positionals. Dancing from the side to the back of a foe isn't what samurai typically do. While many may not hesitate to strike a foe down from behind, they are just as if not more comfortable facing them head on.

I think a lot of people want it to be a dps because they don't like tanking and equate dps with good damage and flashy attacks.

Ffxiv has done a great job in giving tanks flashy attacks and ways to deal very relevant amounts of damage. Do you guys really want to see samurai reduced to some beta class that's afraid to face their foes head on?

[ArdorGrey]

And if you think "well just because they're a dps doesn't mean they need positionals!" Then I say look at what they're doing with ninja, sirs and madams.

[Ryaz]

And if you think "well just because they're a dps doesn't mean they need positionals!" Then I say look at what they're doing with ninja, sirs and madams.

Positionals for melee are fine as long as they only provide a bonus and don't ruin a whole combo. Some fights make it impossible to use them (like the Demon Wall and anything that requires being behind the target).

[ArdorGrey]

Positionals for melee are fine as long as they only provide a bonus and don't ruin a whole combo. Some fights make it impossible to use them (like the Demon Wall and anything that requires being behind the target).

So to you a samurai is someone who dances around the sides and backs of their opponents?

[MetalheroD]

So to you a samurai is someone who dances around the sides and backs of their opponents?

If you want to get technical, historically, Samurai were archers, and they only really carried swords because, A if someone broke through, they needed a defense, and B, because they could afford good ones, and so they showed them off.

[Allyrion]

If you want to get technical, historically, Samurai were archers, and they only really carried swords because, A if someone broke through, they needed a defense, and B, because they could afford good ones, and so they showed them off.

What? No.

1. I don't think Ardor was getting technical, they were asking what type of character is evoked when you call it a Samurai.
i.e. what is an iconic Samurai.

2. Samurai were everything. Yea they were the archers, but they were the foot soldiers (swords and spears) and the cavalry as well.
Some were politicians, poets, historians, advisors or anything non-peasant related.
Even so, there were poorer Samurai who were essentially farmers as well.
A significant amount of Samurai took no part in battle.

The very early Samurai were, indeed, archers. That was almost proto Samurai though.
It wasn't long before the sword actually took over as the main weapon for the majority of their history.
As the Samurai class developed, almost all of them were trained in the sword just as a basic childhood education.

Archery, though, became more specialized subclass.
Hence the iconic Samurai Swordsman is still more accurate, and symbolic of the class.
They actually developed a sword culture for a long time.

What's not accurate is elaborate Samurai armor, which weren't ever battled in.
Anyway, I think SE is working with iconography rather than historically. (As they should for such a stylized game)

[Shurrikhan]

Positionals for melee are fine as long as they only provide a bonus and don't ruin a whole combo. Some fights make it impossible to use them (like the Demon Wall and anything that requires being behind the target).

The majority of that enemy type has been traded out for a non-positional type instead. Demon Wall and Kraken (Sa HM) are about the only enemies with positions blocked off that haven't actually made it easier (allowing any positional from anywhere) than regular enemies to execute pos-abilities.

So to you a samurai is someone who dances around the sides and backs of their opponents?

Kind of funny that this makes the most sense when you are the focus of your opponent's attacks (and using this 'dancing around' to dodge), yet 'tanking' doesn't remotely allow for that kind of movement, especially because of all the people who won't be hit (except by instant cleaves) anyways need to be able to alternate between bashing the enemy's spine and obliques/flanks.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

While I agree with some of this, keep in mind that Samurai was a class later and a contractual position before (though with its name reserved from otherwise similar buddoshi as if for a class thereof), much like a 'Knight'. They're not to be confused with yeoman, serf, or otherwise conscripted infantry or general mercenaries.

Like knights, if not to a greater extreme, they often had their own standards for involvement in combat and commonly did not combat infantrymen (aside from slaughtering them from atop a warhorse, which was still honorable, while stabbing a charging samurai with a pike as a lowly serf would have been dishonorable). Archery was not limited to the samurai class, but it was just as much a show of a samurai's prowess as the sword; the sword could make a more renowned samurai out of his duels, but his archery skill determined his general worth if a lord, the emperor, or a throne-contender were to be hiring...

To be clear though, I have no wish to see FFXIV's Samurai be an archer. I simply don't see even a fifth as much that can be done with archer gameplay as a Samurai compared to the sword. The spear wouldn't be all that much better. Both would likely feel the overlap with the other shared classes than the Sword (despite likely having the most classes using it) would. The sword is not only iconic and a more traditional representation of an FF Samurai, but also more lucrative/practical/call-it-what-you-will. If the armory system eventually broke down, allowing each job to use multiple weapons, then depending on how they're built the spear and sword might fit well enough with their existent tools, but I'd rather see whatever system is made for SAM capitalize completely on the sword than hold out for any alternate weapons.