Bard or Machinists

[Tharian]

No one ever brings in a bard for healer LB exclusively, you're overexaggerating the usefulness of a healer LB (when it's arguably pretty garbage in most circumstances).

Both can bring something to the table that makes them worthy of a raid slot; Bards have their stronger song regen (at the cost of damage), while machinists do not suffer as big of a damage penalty in exchange for their weaker regens. Machinists also have more debuffs at their disposal to help mitigate damage with weapon break/mind shot.

I don't believe I ever stated that the Bard was brought in exclusively for the Healer Limit Break. What I said was that it will be losing some of it's versatility in certain situations... such as when Titan EX kills both healers, and all you have left is your bard and 3 bars on the Limit Break Meter...

Also... is that your signature that is making it look like I have a gnat crawling around on the inside of my screen?

[Sleigh]

My guesses as to BRD vs MCH:

- BRD will hopefully, in a comp with strong healer DPS and a good caster, bring more raid DPS due to Foe's. If MCH beats BRD even counting Foe's then there's no hope for BRD in 3.0 because that basically makes MCH a melee level ranged DPS with debuffs.
- BRD should have more focused TP/MP regen but presumably at a higher cost than MCH would have, if MCH's regen tools are truly weaker as currently reported.
- MCH's debuffs, like phys damage down and magic damage down, look to be unique and possibly very, very helpful for surviving hard hitting mechanics and tank killers depending on how often they can be used or how debilitating it is on MCH's TP or rotation (like how using Rain of Death in 2.0 inflicted Storm's Path but it destroyed TP). This interests me the most about MCH, and to me is what will make or break MCH in a raid environment if BRD contributes more raid DPS.

They both look to be mobile normally, but have a mode that raises their damage when stationary. They share gear, presumably but not for certain including weekly tome gear (2.0 tome gear was job locked).

Then again, this is the dev team who has thus far made the two new classes OP at the time of their launch, with SMN initially the top DPS, and NIN to this day the top melee even post-nerf. For all we know they'll screw with the numbers and balance and make AST, DRK, and MCH just plain better because they're new and enticing, who knows?

[Tharian]

My guesses as to BRD vs MCH:

- BRD will hopefully, in a comp with strong healer DPS and a good caster, bring more raid DPS due to Foe's. If MCH beats BRD even counting Foe's then there's no hope for BRD in 3.0 because that basically makes MCH a melee level ranged DPS with debuffs.

You cannot use the DPS provided by other classes when determining which class between Bard and Machinist will provide more DPS to the raid group. Yes, Bard's Foe's Requiem is a huge benefit to a raid group, but in terms of raw DPS output, the Machinist will be providing more raw DPS because the Bard suffers innate DPS loss when channeling Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad tends to see more use than either Foe's Requiem or Army's Paeon in most cases due to groups needing it to keep their White Mage's operating. From what we can tell the MP and TP regeneration of the Machinist does not reduce the overall DPS output of that class.

[Sleigh]

You cannot use the DPS provided by other classes when determining which class between Bard and Machinist will provide more DPS to the raid group. Yes, Bard's Foe's Requiem is a huge benefit to a raid group, but in terms of raw DPS output, the Machinist will be providing more raw DPS because the Bard suffers innate DPS loss when channeling Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad tends to see more use than either Foe's Requiem or Army's Paeon in most cases due to groups needing it to keep their White Mage's operating. From what we can tell the MP and TP regeneration of the Machinist does not reduce the overall DPS output of that class.

From Famitsu:

"The turrets can be summoned by the Autoturret techniques (Autoturret Rook and Autoturret Bishop). Since the turrets cannot move, the basic idea is to leave them out on the field during battle (they can be removed by the Turret Recovery action). There are also actions to enhance the turret itself and to switch the mode of the installed turret. Autoturret Rook attacks a single enemy, while the Autoturret Bishop, in addition to performing automatic AoE attacks, can change mode to grant support effects of MP or TP recovery to nearby party members."

From what we've heard, the MCH's version of Paeon is slower than BRD's, and it can only come from the AoE turret which is logically weaker ST than the ordinary turret, with probably more detriments when regening TP (if it does damage at all at that point). We'll have to see and test that aspect of BRD vs MCH but I'd imagine that aspect of their support is close to each other. For BRD vs MCH, BRD has to provide more overall raid DPS IMO unless they change BRD's current tool set, or they will be imbalanced due to MCH's damage down skills, much like how DRG/NIN must (and do) provide more raid DPS than a MNK does.

[Tharian]

I think we are miss-communicating here. When you are referring to "raid DPS" are you referring to the total combined DPS of the entire raid group/alliance or the individual Bard/Machinist? Because if it is the former then that is a horrible way to judge which of the two classes is a superior DPS class.

[Ephier]

I will state that the Machinist draws its Cross-Class abilities from both the Archer (Bard) and the Lancer (Dragoon), so it would probably be a very good idea to max both Archer's and Lancer's levels out as it is possible that when we get access to level 60 we may be able to gain higher level Cross-Class skills, even though the number of Cross-Class slots won't be going up. At the very least if you plan on leveling Machinist you need both Archer and Lancer to be level 34 to gain access to all of the currently available Cross-Class skills.

There will be no new cross class skills.

[Tharian]

There will be no new cross class skills.

your source if you please...

[lordoftheapes79]

your source if you please...

Think it was said at nikoniko or whatever, but he's right.

[Tharian]

Think it was said at nikoniko or whatever, but he's right.

I would still prefer an actual source rather than a "but he's right."

Either way it would still probably be a good idea to level as many classes as possible as high as possible, Dragoon especially considering the emphasis that the X-pac appears to be placing on the class.

[RiceisNice]

I don't believe I ever stated that the Bard was brought in exclusively for the Healer Limit Break. What I said was that it will be losing some of it's versatility in certain situations... such as when Titan EX kills both healers, and all you have left is your bard and 3 bars on the Limit Break Meter...

I would also like to point out that the Bard is going to be losing a really HUGE aspect of its support capabilities in Heavensward when it loses the Healer Limit Break. Instead it will be using a DPS-oriented Limit Break from Heavensward forward, which while that seems all well and good, it will limit the Bard's usefulness in certain situations.

This makes it sound like that it is a very important feature to bard. Even in titan EX, a healer really shouldn't be dying unless its a botched landslide (in which case, you can't res them anyway). Even then it's only one fight, it has almost no utility in coil fights where one death can ruin everything (t10 for example, and you're more or less going to die anyway because of the animation lock), or they died to
Also... is that your signature that is making it look like I have a gnat crawling around on the inside of my screen?

divebombs/touching the wall (which will kill them as soon as they res and debuff them no less)

Also, what signature ' ^'