Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

[Lewtskie]

But I think it's also because this hits a bit personally / at home with me, as someone who's tried to recruit others to this game only to watch them get turned off by the massive grind of story at the end. So advocating for something else, even if it doesn't affect me, doesn't necessarily make it a waste of my time.

The story grind drove them away....

I was gonna come up with a sassy answer but screw it, if what they consider a 'grind' with the story drove them away then what were they gonna do about everything else that's a grind?

No, better yet, why not tell them that actually doing the story helps them avoid the obnoxious grind we've all dealt with up til now. Won't save them from future grind, so it may be an inevitable end for them.

Honestly, why don't you get them on here and have them speak for themselves. You're not doing anyone any favors. None of the people on here who 'speak on the behalf of people they know/don't know/never seen before/will never even meet' are and it's getting absurd.

You know what the people who actually ARE new that have been to this thread have said? Those I've seen have said they are enjoying the story, what they have now, and are looking forward to unlocking things. And really, if someone from SE were following this thread who would they pay attention to more? The people making second-hand assumptions or someone one saying 'oh, well this one guy I know', or someone who is actually in that position?

[Blood-Aki]

You can say not a single arguement has been given that's "good enough" but that's purely subjective, and personally, I can state right back that a single arguement hasn't been given that's "Good enough" to keep the current design.

So it's not "good enough" to tell you or any self-centered person thinking they shouldn't work for what they want to actually DO the story mode which is the MAIN factor in heavensward access? Hell why do we have to level jobs to 50 then? we should get access to level 50 jobs the moment we step out of the 1st CS, This is just bad game design.

[Eidolon]

Do you not understand that FATES won't be their only option for exp gain? As in dungeons and trials? You know....the same options we have now---only the exp rewards will be greater the second time around (be that SE tweaking roullete or clearance rewards at end, or the simple 50% armory bonus applied to everything they kill).

It will still remain to be seen weather or not this bonus is enough to help ease the grinding process, and if it even exists. I'm eager to see what SE does with it, and as I conceded before, this is a step in the right direction. What I'm stating is rediculous is locking the content behind a level 50 wall for level 30 content.

So it's not "good enough" to tell you or any self-centered person thinking they shouldn't work for what they want to actually DO the story mode which is the MAIN factor in heavensward access? Hell why do we have to level jobs to 50 then? we should get access to level 50 jobs the moment we step out of the 1st CS, This is just bad game design.

Regardless

Hyperbole is not your strong suit, and does not suit your arguement.

No one is saying they do not wish to work, and no one is saying they do not wish to earn what they get. But I will stress this a second time: The jobs themselves are level 30, and a logical progression of the jobs SHOULD remain the same as they currently are, even for new jobs (Just as Ninja remained the same.) You should be able to unlock the job at the same level, without having to be nearly twice over the level in order to unlock it.

Getting to level 30 is more than enough. You advanced in the story to that point, and just like every other job, you should unlock the new job at that point. Just like how every other job, you get it at 30. Would it make sense if you had to take Lancer to level 50 before you could change to Dragoon level 30? That is roughly what this system currently is, as another poster pointed out - Advanced jobs with a bit of extra coushin to them.

So no, stating an overexaggeration that people don't want to work, when they have already worked to get to level 30 (Not suggesting anything be given for free) is not a good arguement to me. Please try to provide one that makes sense.

The story grind drove them away....

I was gonna come up with a sassy answer but screw it, if what they consider a 'grind' with the story drove them away then what were they gonna do about everything else that's a grind?

No, better yet, why not tell them that actually doing the story helps them avoid the obnoxious grind we've all dealt with up til now. Won't save them from future grind, so it may be an inevitable end for them.

Honestly, why don't you get them on here and have them speak for themselves. You're not doing anyone any favors. None of the people on here who 'speak on the behalf of people they know/don't know/never seen before/will never even meet' are and it's getting absurd.

You know what the people who actually ARE new that have been to this thread have said? Those I've seen have said they are enjoying the story, what they have now, and are looking forward to unlocking things. And really, if someone from SE were following this thread who would they pay attention to more? The people making second-hand assumptions or someone one saying 'oh, well this one guy I know', or someone who is actually in that position?

Sadly it sucks to say, but I've lost most of my recruited friends in this game to the level 50 grind. The path getting there honestly is a bit monotonous (I remember going through it, and the only real moments that pre-50 stuck with me was fighting the primals and just how tedious the quests pre-titan were) but it's bareable. Tons of people mock this game because of the fact that you'll constantly have to return to the Waking Sands, which I rolled my eyes every time I had to do.

I don't drag them here because, let's be fair - once someone leaves the game, they're probably not coming back. Unless they're the type that come back for major content patches (Of which there is an installbase that does this), I do not believe any of them have an interest in returning. What I would like to see is preventing that in the future.

I have friends that are excited to play DRK. Thankfully a good number of htem had a pre-existing 50 job so all they'll have to do is clear the requirements at 50. I feel sorry for those who don't.

[Sskaiin]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

[Catwho]

Considering the fact we now know we'll have the option to go into low level content uncapped if we go in a unfilled party, anyone worried about their "new" friends can just go as a lv60 blm and curb stomp the entire lowbie dungeon circuit. Also those dungeons are going to be crawling with people leveling the three new jobs, so it isn't like they are going to be waiting long if they are just doing it the old fashioned way.

Let's be real, the majority doesn't care about new people they don't personally know, cause you scream at them like they murdered your dog if they don't hit cancel fast enough for the dungeon cutscenes. What this is really about is people with alts for whatever reason now have to do the story 2-8 times so they can get their craft, gather, or desynth mules into the new land of milk and honey. So yeah this gate won't hold rmt and player bots out forever, but damn it's going to be sweet for at least a month before they worm their way in.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. Most of the people griping are doing so because of their alt accounts.

I actually disagree with SE about the decision to gate the jobs themselves - I figured they'd be unlocked in Coerthas. Ishgard itself needs to be locked due to the story, but there's no reason for the jobs to be locked too other than a design decision by SE. I can see their reasoning, but I don't like it.

[Lewtskie]

Sadly it sucks to say, but I've lost most of my recruited friends in this game to the level 50 grind. The path getting there honestly is a bit monotonous (I remember going through it, and the only real moments that pre-50 stuck with me was fighting the primals and just how tedious the quests pre-titan were) but it's bareable. Tons of people mock this game because of the fact that you'll constantly have to return to the Waking Sands, which I rolled my eyes every time I had to do.

So what were they going to do about post 50? Grinding doesn't end, only gets even more monotonous from there. Levels and ilevels are one and the same, it's a number that you're slowly building up from day one. At least with character level there was the joy of extending class/job story, main story, getting new abilities to try out. Post 50 would have been the same, any level cap will be the same.

And it's not like anyone would get to play DRK at lvl 1 anyway were it not gated. You'd still have to level something else. Hell, were the new Jobs tied to classes like ours are, they'd have to level more than just their one magical ideal class. Screw it, you need to anyway. Want to be a DRK, guess what, still gonna need cross class skills from PLD and MRD. So might as well be leveling them up from the get go, get them out of the way. Since they're at 30 at that point, continue, build on what you know and see what endgame is like.

WAR was my first 50, and pre-50 it was fun. Post 50, I hated it. Things were different, more complicated, and I had no idea it would be a different beast. And it is, not by much, but certain mechanics, the people, little things here and there. So my first 50 ended up being a bust. I eventually turned to BRD and somewhat WHM and doing swell with them. I found my niche through the trial and error. Same might go for them. They may end up not liking how one of the roles acts in endgame with their slew of mechanics. Better they get a taste now with what's available and go from there.

[Nihility]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

There will always be people with a "I want it but i don't want to work for it so just give it to me" attitude in every game
and in the forums they tend to hide that sentiment behind either the 'I am paying so i should get to play however I want' or the 'I am standing up for the little guy that for some reason can't even manage to voice his opinion on a forum he's so pathetic' sort of deal

[Eidolon]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

You know, it's extremely funny to me. So far, I've had very few people come forward and discuss calmly and rationally. There was one guy a few pages back, and we had a pretty lengthy conversation (Though that quote chain of ours seems to have died off.)

Now I seem to be getting the people who rely on base insults as part of their arguement. "You just don't want people to work", "People want to be handed things" , "Your arguement's not good enough." I'll be honest, it's pretty sad in my book. I bite my tongue to make sure I don't turn around and use an equally baseless arguement in return such as "If you don't like what's being discussed here, why are you in this topic?"

Now, you quote previous video games as an example.

Tales of Vesperia (360) you could complete the game to unlock Mania mode. This also unlocked special bonuses such as increased EXP, carrying over Devil Weapon stats (the kills were what determined their strength once unlocked), items you had collected. etc etc. You beat the game and unlocked a replay of the game, but it was enhanced with extra content which gave it extra life. This is good design.

Tales of Vesperia (PS3) added new content on top of this. It did not require you to go beat the game to play the new on-level content. It did not lock anything behind the completion of it that it expanded upon - namely, with the new characters they added to the game. That wouldv'e been bad design.

Tales of Destiny R has a special "Leon" mode for once you beat the game, where you follow a continuing path of Leon's story after you beat the game. Again, good design, and was pretty awesome to feel uber-powerful. Logical progression at its finest.

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game.

FFX-2 gave you the jobs at level 1, and you had to complete a quest in order to unlock the job spheres. If you didn't have the job spheres, you didn't have the job. This resulted in extra grinding after-the-fact. But it never required you to go to the end of the story and beat it in order to unlock a job sphere. Though especially powerful dress spheres like the Mascot were locked behind the Chapter 5 and certain pre-reqs. This was a mechanic in the game that made genuine sense and followed its logical flow.

FFXIV has jobs that are now locked behind level 50 content when jobs have never been locked behind content that is well beyond the level of the job itself, and is a system that is inherantly unfriendly to new players (those that SE shoudl want to catch) as well as those who want to make alts using the new jobs (which is a small percentage and if you wish to call that insignificant, well, I'll concede that willingly.)

You would have more of an arguement, in my opinion, if I was arguing that people shouldn't be required to level Archer to play Black Mage. That would be trying to bypass work required to obtain the job. However, that is not what I am arguing at all.

I want to see players enjoying the new content, and would love to see this expansion be as profitable as possible as ARR 2.0 was for SE so far. I outright -love- this game and want to see it succeed as much as possible, and will happily state my thoughts on it - just as I welcome you to do the same in counter, so long as you will provide reasonable discussion on it instead of calling people "Entitled" or "Not wanting to work."

[m3eansean]

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game. ."

Beowulf (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Cloud Strife (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Worker 13 (unique Job and character design) access via optional story Arc
Dragontamer (Beowulf's gf) access via optional story Arc

[Catwho]

FFX-2 gave you the jobs at level 1, and you had to complete a quest in order to unlock the job spheres. If you didn't have the job spheres, you didn't have the job. This resulted in extra grinding after-the-fact. But it never required you to go to the end of the story and beat it in order to unlock a job sphere. Though especially powerful dress spheres like the Mascot were locked behind the Chapter 5 and certain pre-reqs. This was a mechanic in the game that made genuine sense and followed its logical flow.

X-2 is an interesting example because although the jobs were not necessary to complete the story, the game was also quite literally built in such a way that they didn't expect you to finish everything on the first round - you were expected to play it multiple times trying to get a better ending. Iterative game design, that's called.

XIV: ARR -> XIV: HW is the exact opposite, since you are expected to complete the MSQ just once and then derp around in the rest of the game doing whatever.

Think about FFX. You had to complete a large chunk of the story before you acquired your full party. I mean, you had to get almost a third of the way on the journey before you got Rikku as a party member full time. That meant no thief! And she was also quite a ways behind on leveling from everyone else too, although she caught up quickly. Think about how much of the story you had to go through to get your airship, too; prior to that, all your traveling was linear, blocked by story, and on foot. Bevelle was not available until midway through the game, and became completely locked down by the end.

So locking locations behind story content is nothing new to FF. It's just a different decision than what they did in FFXI, where a few of the new zones - and the new jobs - were available immediately. (With that said, who is to say that some of the other Coerthas zones won't be immediately available besides Ishgard?)