Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

[Sskaiin]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

[Nihility]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

There will always be people with a "I want it but i don't want to work for it so just give it to me" attitude in every game
and in the forums they tend to hide that sentiment behind either the 'I am paying so i should get to play however I want' or the 'I am standing up for the little guy that for some reason can't even manage to voice his opinion on a forum he's so pathetic' sort of deal

[Eidolon]

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you want something then you need to do the work that's required to get it?

How many games have we played that you had to beat the entire game on the hardest difficulty or collect all the secrets just so you can unlock a new character, or job, or items, or cheats, or levels etc etc?

This isn't a new concept. It's been done in countless other games and will continue to be implemented.

Some people just won't be happy unless they log in and have a bunch of NPC vendors in the starter city buffing them to max level and giving away the highest ilevel gear.

You know, it's extremely funny to me. So far, I've had very few people come forward and discuss calmly and rationally. There was one guy a few pages back, and we had a pretty lengthy conversation (Though that quote chain of ours seems to have died off.)

Now I seem to be getting the people who rely on base insults as part of their arguement. "You just don't want people to work", "People want to be handed things" , "Your arguement's not good enough." I'll be honest, it's pretty sad in my book. I bite my tongue to make sure I don't turn around and use an equally baseless arguement in return such as "If you don't like what's being discussed here, why are you in this topic?"

Now, you quote previous video games as an example.

Tales of Vesperia (360) you could complete the game to unlock Mania mode. This also unlocked special bonuses such as increased EXP, carrying over Devil Weapon stats (the kills were what determined their strength once unlocked), items you had collected. etc etc. You beat the game and unlocked a replay of the game, but it was enhanced with extra content which gave it extra life. This is good design.

Tales of Vesperia (PS3) added new content on top of this. It did not require you to go beat the game to play the new on-level content. It did not lock anything behind the completion of it that it expanded upon - namely, with the new characters they added to the game. That wouldv'e been bad design.

Tales of Destiny R has a special "Leon" mode for once you beat the game, where you follow a continuing path of Leon's story after you beat the game. Again, good design, and was pretty awesome to feel uber-powerful. Logical progression at its finest.

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game.

FFX-2 gave you the jobs at level 1, and you had to complete a quest in order to unlock the job spheres. If you didn't have the job spheres, you didn't have the job. This resulted in extra grinding after-the-fact. But it never required you to go to the end of the story and beat it in order to unlock a job sphere. Though especially powerful dress spheres like the Mascot were locked behind the Chapter 5 and certain pre-reqs. This was a mechanic in the game that made genuine sense and followed its logical flow.

FFXIV has jobs that are now locked behind level 50 content when jobs have never been locked behind content that is well beyond the level of the job itself, and is a system that is inherantly unfriendly to new players (those that SE shoudl want to catch) as well as those who want to make alts using the new jobs (which is a small percentage and if you wish to call that insignificant, well, I'll concede that willingly.)

You would have more of an arguement, in my opinion, if I was arguing that people shouldn't be required to level Archer to play Black Mage. That would be trying to bypass work required to obtain the job. However, that is not what I am arguing at all.

I want to see players enjoying the new content, and would love to see this expansion be as profitable as possible as ARR 2.0 was for SE so far. I outright -love- this game and want to see it succeed as much as possible, and will happily state my thoughts on it - just as I welcome you to do the same in counter, so long as you will provide reasonable discussion on it instead of calling people "Entitled" or "Not wanting to work."

[m3eansean]

Final Fantasy Tactics has had you unlock new jobs by reaching certain levels/gaining certain skills in other jobs and then you start out back at level 1. This, again, makes sense to me. I do not recall if any of the jobs were locked behind story, however in that game. ."

Beowulf (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Cloud Strife (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Worker 13 (unique Job and character design) access via optional story Arc
Dragontamer (Beowulf's gf) access via optional story Arc

[Sskaiin]

stuff

We could spend months going back and forth listing examples of requirements to gain certain things. I.E. Uncharted 2 = Beat the game on Crushing, get the platinum trophy, collect all treasures to get the skeleton skins to use in Multiplayer that had the advantage of being silent.

The overall statement is that things people want are sometimes locked behind certain requirements. People that want those things need to do those things to get them.

Getting 1 job to 50 and completing 2.55 gives you instant access to 3 level 30 jobs. You want them to do it when a person gets 1 class to 30? Which one sounds more balanced? A level 50 with 2.55 completed gets 3 free level 30's or 1 level 30 gets 3 free 30's. First sounds fair to me, second sounds like a cheap handout.

You want to see players enjoying new content? Well if they are new players or old ones who haven't completed the MSQ yet then guess what? It's all still new content to them they can enjoy.

[Eidolon]

First of all, before I post anything, I just want to give a cordial bow and a "Thanks" to you for cleaning it up a little. :3 There's a lot less aggressiveness in this post and honestly, you have some really great/amazing points. So, thanks again.

We could spend months going back and forth listing examples of requirements to gain certain things. I.E. Uncharted 2 = Beat the game on Crushing, get the platinum trophy, collect all treasures to get the skeleton skins to use in Multiplayer that had the advantage of being silent.

Interesting point on Uncharted 2... the Platinum trophy I can understand - that's a measured achievement system, and makes sense. Attatching multiplay rewards to it though? Bleh. This is why I play Single Player games for the Single Player. xD

The overall statement is that things people want are sometimes locked behind certain requirements. People that want those things need to do those things to get them.

I won't disagree with this sentiment. But I do believe there should be a certain limit to the restrictions on things that is a part of good game design. In my eyes, the limit of a level 50 / story cap is a bit too much. But I can understand the sentiment towards the current restrictions as well (going to the next post on this one)

Getting 1 job to 50 and completing 2.55 gives you instant access to 3 level 30 jobs. You want them to do it when a person gets 1 class to 30? Which one sounds more balanced? A level 50 with 2.55 completed gets 3 free level 30's or 1 level 30 gets 3 free 30's. First sounds fair to me, second sounds like a cheap handout.

This is actually... an extremely fair and valid point. You shouldn't be given 3 level 30's for leveling one job up to 30. Perhaps making it so that PLD or WAR at 30 unlocks DRK, DPS at 30 unlock MCH, and SCH or WHM at 30 unlocks AST would be a good way to do it (Since that would b e keeping things in the spirit of the same-role, and would make for a more player-freindly transition.)

I'm not completely opposed to locks, so long as they make sense. And I have to concede to you that yea... you shouldn't get access to all 3 if you haven't leveled a role appropriate for the job to that point. Right now it's interesting in the fact that getting to 50 + 2.55 completion will unlock all 3. While not very newcommer friendly, I'll admit it's a nice little reward for those of us who have gotten there. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate path being awarded to those who are new to the game - as stated above

You want to see players enjoying new content? Well if they are new players or old ones who haven't completed the MSQ yet then guess what? It's all still new content to them they can enjoy.

There are a few big selling points for new players to join at the expansion:
1) The playing field is even. There is no longer catchup.
2) New jobs = much hype. People joined the game for /Ninja/ too.
3) Expansion = new content.

In my eyes, #1 and #2 are slightly hindered by the current system. Buying Heavensward out the gate is pointless and they should only buy ARR until they reach 50, at which point they should buy heavensward. This isn't a very good business model in my eye because it dissuades people from buying them both and the less investment = less reason to continue (People are more prone to tolerate that which they invest more into.)

In its own way it's good as well because if someone doesn't buy Heavensward and decides they don't like the game during ARR storyline, then they just saved themselves the cost of an expansion. But the way I see it, you might still hook someone easier on a job they're interested in at 30 than you might in telling them to wait until 50 + buy an expansion to try the new job.

Still, thanks again for keeping it civil.

Beowulf (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Cloud Strife (unique Job) access via optional story Arc
Worker 13 (unique Job and character design) access via optional story Arc
Dragontamer (Beowulf's gf) access via optional story Arc

Man it's been a while since I did Final Fantasy Tactics. <.< Wonder if I can get it on steam...

[Tsuga]

snip

I understand your position that the new Jobs may be a selling point to someone just starting the game, so leveling a job that they may not be interested in from 1-50, plus story could push them away. I don't think that even a majority of the people who do want to play these jobs would quit, just like that. Like you, I'm speculating.

These players will have to level other classes anyway. It's fundamental to XIV's design. They will have to go back to level 1, probably several times. I do not think that completing a story that takes half as long as it currently does, and rewards far more than it currently does (easing gear progression), is as much of a gate as people seem to think it is. I think that a casual player could get through that content in less than a month, especially with friends. Again, I'm speculating - however based on the confirmation that exp will be roughly doubled. If players DO leave because they can't have dark knight at 30, then I have to question whether they would have stuck around very long past 60, anyway.

I see these jobs as something to work toward. They ARE appealing, and just like many games with similar systems - a lot of the best/coolest classes take more work to get. I think that they are an objective to strive for, and something that makes Ishgard a more appealing achievement.

I also think that SE has gated this content for important reasons (I guess we'll know on Friday). They have done very well with the design and balance of this game, and I am not one to second guess this decision - because let's face it, the easy thing to do would be to NOT gate Ishgard at all and just use it to essentially reset all of the progress anyone who's been playing since launch has made, and ignore all of the content that they themselves have spent 3+ years developing. I could argue that this would lose SE more of their dedicated players than it would gain, though.