If you disable cleric stance during combat, when would you use it?

[Cynfael]

That's exactly what is being said.

Actually it isn't. What was said was that healer DPS wasn't taken into account when calculating clear minimums for raid content. Doesn't mean the same thing or even close to what you are suggesting it means.

To be extra clear, they are obviously aware of the fact that healers do DPS; what they have been choosing not to do is purposely tune encounters so high that the DPS are unable to meet the minimum clear check without healer help (assuming that the DPS are performing close to average expectation for the target ilvl).

[KisaiTenshi]

Is anyone in this thread is even reading the linked posts, let alone anything in the thread.


http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

So you expect it to go up overall?

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

――それほどは全体で見るとそれほど伸びてないと？

吉田氏：　そうですね。レベル60で全ジョブとも今まで以上にDPSが上がっているので、白魔道士も見合った分だけ伸びるという意味なだけです。もともと開発チームでは、大迷宮バハムートなど、レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

　ただ、確かに世界トップレベルの人たちは、最速攻略争いをするので、開発が想定したアイテムレベルよりも、低いアイテムレベルでクリアを目指します。そうなると、4DSPとタンクの基礎DPSだけでは数値的にクリアできなくなり、結果、出せるDPSがあるなら、少しでも多くDPSを、ということで彼らはヒーラーのDPSも計算して攻略しようとします。それらのクリア動画が出ると、ヒーラーもDPSを出しているため、「ヒーラーもDPSを！」と思われがちですが、それは「無理をしてクリアしようとしている」から発生しているシチュエーションです。これを完全に数値で足切りして、想定アイテムレベル以下ではクリアできないように作ることも可能なのですが、それではプレーヤースキルの高い人たちに、工夫して全員の意思疎通やアイテム理解度を上げ、ギリギリのギリギリを付いてクリアする、という遊びを無くしてしまうことになります。難しい判断ではありますが、やはり固定パーティーの方針次第かなと思っています。

　このことは今回機工城アレキサンダーがノーマルとハードの2つを実装することになった理由の一因でもあります。繰り返しになりますが、開発チームはレイドの攻略にヒーラーのDPSを含めていませんので、今回のレベルキャップ開放でも他のジョブと比べて、ヒーラーとしての上昇分を足しただけと思って欲しいです。

So:
1. Yoshida says that they do not design the dungeons with the healers DPS in mind during development and DPS set 10-15% below expected gear.
2. Yoshida says that people who post videos "first clears" clearing the dungeon, use their healers to make up for shortfall in DPS
3. Yoshida says that this gives players the mistaken impression that Healers are required to DPS to complete the dungeon when the "Clear" videos using healers to DPS used the healers to make up for shortfalls in DPS.


I don't know of anyone actually bragging that they cleared FCoB with ilevel 90 gear when the previous dungeon gave ilevel 110 gear.

The minimum ilevel only ensures that you don't get parties that would never be able to complete the dungeon, no matter what the party and gear configuration is. Things like the Enrage timer insure that you can't just enter with the minimum ilevel and take your time. It also prevents being players from just being carried by without raising the gear requirements of everyone else in the party. A full party of minimum ilevel never happens in practice. If they raised the entry requirements to that of the previous dungeons gear, then it would actually require increasing the difficulty further.

There are however people who enter WoD, at ilevel 90 with the sole purpose of trying to get the i120 gear, skipping buying tomes gear or even doing ST for any gear. There are also bad players who enter WoD wearing crafting gear.

[Cynfael]

Stuff.

Yet none of that means that developers are remotely ignorant of healers DPSing or somehow disapprove (rather the opposite, actually). All they do is design content to be clearable by the appropriate number of DPS players performing adequately and equipped around the target ilvl. That's it.

You're reading way more into this than what is written and interpreting it in such a way that it supports your position (which I am reading as "devs didn't intend for healers to DPS in group content") when it actually addresses nothing more than the DPS criterion for clear minimums.

[SarcasmMisser]

The minimum ilevel only ensures that you don't get parties that would never be able to complete the dungeon, no matter what the party and gear configuration is.

People when they first enter raids are entering them with gear less than what is required to clear, this is why healer DPS counts because it allows players to break the tuning. Players have consistently cleared raids with less gear than what the devs stated were required, look at the min ilevel for t13. I cleared it with an i114 tank.

All he is doing is musing on why raids are being cleared early, that healer DPS is the reason and saying that they are fine with the status quo, but if you want to cling to that so you can lecture people on raids you don't do keep trucking on. Not even a T5 clear lmao, like a child teaching the adults about the birds and the bees.

[Neophyte]

Like I asked in the other thread, why does it seem like it's all or nothing with you? You seem to have an issue grasping that a good healer in FFXIV can keep the party alive and can also deal damage during healing down time.

+++++

I queue up as healer to be a healer. But if its e.g. Snowcloak, then what should I do all the time?!
Last time i got a tank who did only small pulls, my fairy healed enough (especially if Tank got Adlo/Stoneskin) so that I could just stand there and do nothing. Very exciting. Wait.. just take my fariy with you, I'll go to sleep.

You really think it's a good idea, that SCH can only join with CS perma-off in dungeons? Yeah, sounds fun hitting those 4 buttons once in a while.

What's next? Complaining about tank-stances (tanks should definitly have the tank-stance preset ON in dungeons/trials and shouldn't be able to turn it off. That would be great.... ah, yeah ) or tanks wearing Acessoires of Slaying?

[VanilleFang]

Is anyone in this thread is even reading the linked posts, let alone anything in the thread.

You, KisaiTenshi, are asking if anyone in this thread is actually reading what's being posted?

Not to be rude, but many of us have asked you this question many times in the past. The way you post, the way you word things, the way you ignore people looking for a straight answer from you for once, and many of us still aren't sure if you are actually paying attention to what people are saying or if you just chock it all up to "white noise" and continue on your way.

We think this because your stance on this subject has not budged, at all, even though in every thread it has been stated at least a hundred times(exaggeration, but barely for some threads) that no one on here is ever saying what you say they are saying. You also look at everything too black and white without looking at how the game actually is. The game is not This-or-that, "Heal OR DPS not both", it is "you have all this so use it", it is grey. You also have a tendency to quote someone and then restate what they posted as if to correct them, or make a point. You don't say you are adding to anything, you don't agree, you just move a few words around and state exactly what they said.

Not only that but many of us (Cynfael, Lyrica and myself for starters) have said many times that NO ONE has ever said that Healers have to DPS, yet you keep saying that everyone here is saying that. We state that it is inefficient, but we don't have a problem with healers who are uncomfortable with it. We do, however, have a problem with healers who try to push their anti-dps healer jargon on everyone else, because telling new healers to never ever DPS, or that healer DPS is low or some lie, is a sure fire way to bring in another high level "I'm going to jump around and do nothing" healer. I am not saying you do this though, even though its hard for me not too. I mean considering that in this thread you, basically, stated that healers are designed not to DPS.

[KisaiTenshi]

Not to be rude

Then don't say anything.

[ZeratoTyrael]

I don't get what the fuss is all about. In other games I've played, MMOs included,(FFXI, WoW, Rift), I DPSd as a healer when incoming dmg was low all the time, this is hardly a new concept.... I learned that way before one of the well known "Healer DPS", the Discipline Priest, even became popular in WoW. In fact, I learned it in FFXI when I started playing WHM and RDM. Even for how awful MP regen was in that game back then I still found opportunities to toss out dots and occasional nukes... Here it's served on silver platter and much easier to do. It just made perfect sense to me back then and it does even more so now. If major healing isn't needed and I have plenty of MP...why not make use of my abilities and all the lost MP from sitting at a full mp bar for too long (talking about effective MP because of natural regeneration). It's not mandatory in the slightest. It's simply additional utility for those of us who actually enjoy using it and squeezing a bit more efficiency out of our time and role. Think about it like this: average BRD Joe doesn't ever have to sing a song to fulfill his role as DPS, but great BRD Yuna (lol) knows when and how to use the songs to help her party. If you're not trying to min/max you're role then just don't use it, no big deal. Just don't try to push your beliefs on others. There will always be bad healers and bad players of any role, that doesn't mean to get rid of things that other players can make use of.

TLDR: The fact of the matter is, Healer DPS is UTILITY. Not the main focus of the role or needed at all times, nor is content balanced around it being there. However, it is there when the opportunity avails itself. You either use it or don't use it, you like it or don't like it. Just don't get upset that someone else can find success while using it effectively.

[Caiera]

I don't see what all the fuss is about, as a WHM I have always jumped in with some DPS when I have been able to do so, the cleric stance is simple enough to use, jumping in and out if required at a press of a button.

[DarkmoonVael]

To answer the OP, i dont think there would be any application for this move then. It is a pure combat move, so disabling it in combat would make it useless.

And to add to the kind of tangential discussion going on here. Healer DPS in progression raids is needed, and i doubt you would ever find a healer in a progression raid group that doesnt dps. Any other content, healer DPS is entirely optional, as many people have said here and in other threads. What healer DPS is not is all or nothing, you can heal and dps, its not one or the other.

Also, cleric stance is one of the biggest skill testers on a healer, i said this in another thread and will reiterate it here. There are healers that cant use cleric stance, healers who wont use cleric stance and there are those that will use cleric stance. If you lack the skill to use it or refuse to use it, dont start this self entitled rubbish about how it has to be removed due to your jealousy of those who can use cleric stance. It is an absolutely necessary tool for people like me who run healer in a progression bases raid team.

Also, what are you going to do when there is no healing to be done, sit around twiddling your thumbs?