If you disable cleric stance during combat, when would you use it?

[Ghishlain]

~Snip~

Why even bother playing the game if all you're trying to do is encourage the lowest common denominator with zero allowance for deviation? Where's the fun in that? I enjoy having the tools to encourage high levels of play and adaptability. Please do not take that away from me.

[GideonHighmourn]

I can't believe this is even being debated, really.

To answer the original question, no. I'd never use it.

[Cynfael]

The problem is the mechanic itself means that when you are in CS, you are not being a (effective) healer.

I assume that you mean that literally, and it is true in that sense, but in the bigger picture it's important to note that CS makes for incredibly effective healers. Unnecessary healing converted to additional damage = more efficient progress towards duty completion and fewer opportunities for bad things to happen.

This results in players having to play the dungeons like they were designed.

You're positioning your own assumptions as fact again. Unless you can page Yoshida over here or else find a quote that says something to the effect of "Despite having given healers (and off-tanks, for that matter) abilities to increase their damage, it never, ever occurred to us that players would want to use them to complete duties more quickly," you can't credibly throw out statements about "how dungeons were designed" or "what the developers intended."

[Atlaworks]

I don't recall ever running into a healer who only wanted to DPS; I have never met a healer who queued up as a healer just to DPS because the queue was faster, and people entering CS doesn't mean they focus on dealing damage rather than healing.

Really? Because I get those like... 35-50% of the time in DF queues, if the content is level 50. It really is an issue; though generally speaking it can be solved with a vote kick if the healer is being a jerk about it. My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam), and while I'm cool with healers DPSing if they're comfortable with it, it should never invalidate the people dedicated to DPS with the longer queues. So seeing things like "We need more attack skills SE can we have Holygajablahblah" or "I want more water spells give me more fluid auras" or "If you take away CS I won't heal and that means no one will heal and you'll never get to do a dungeon again so nyah" both discourages debate of things like balance and makes me wonder how many healers value DPSing above healing. That should not be a thing- the "Healer is DPS with a faster queue" mentality exists because of just how high their damage potential is and how ignorable healing is for the most part when you overgear content.

Personally, I think the best solution is to nerf Cleric Stance, as well(Or holy. Ughhhh holy.). But y'know, not remove it being toggled in combat at all. Though it would solve the problem, it'd overdo it. I recognize any nerfing of healer damage will make healers just shout and cry and claw innocent people and creatures' eyes out because the healing community is the loudest to cry about problems outside the summoners, but I think a simple solution might just be to make Cleric Stance swap a percentage of INT and MND, as opposed to all of it. It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation, and that if they mess up stancedancing or something goes wrong their healing isn't entirely destroyed. Maybe like 75-80% instead of 100%.

[Cynfael]

My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam)

*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation.

Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

[KisaiTenshi]

Why even bother playing the game if all you're trying to do is encourage the lowest common denominator with zero allowance for deviation? Where's the fun in that? I enjoy having the tools to encourage high levels of play and adaptability. Please do not take that away from me.

Isn't that what I said? Not much fun in an inflexible designs. But at the same time, if you make every role a DPS, then every dungeon run is a race to the finish instead of a collaborative effort. Games that do this are worse, because then it encourages just soloing the content through brute-force, and is no fun for anyone but the first player to do it.

Each "pull" without a tank should flatten a party in 5 seconds. Each pull without a healer should cause a wipe in 5 seconds. Each pull without any DPS should take an agonizingly long time as the tank and healer would have to slow-burn the mobs down. Anything other than than this for the "3-role" system in FFXIV is a bad dungeon design balance. If you lose the tank or healer during a pull then it really should be a wipe, every time.

I assume that you mean that literally, and it is true in that sense, but in the bigger picture it's important to note that CS makes for incredibly effective healers. Unnecessary healing converted to additional damage = more efficient progress towards duty completion and fewer opportunities for bad things to happen.

Right, the DPS-WHM who enters the dungeon in CS, and never turns it off, is certainly playing poorly, especially when the SCH co-healer might have better DPS output with much less risk. But as I mentioned before, players are certainly queuing as healer and then choosing not to heal on 8-man/24-man content.

You're positioning your own assumptions as fact again. Unless you can page Yoshida over here or else find a quote that says something to the effect of "Despite having given healers (and off-tanks, for that matter) abilities to increase their damage, it never, ever occurred to us that players would want to use them to complete duties more quickly," you can't credibly throw out statements about "how dungeons were designed" or "what the developers intended."

That's exactly what is being said.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

The dungeons are designed against the DPS output at the minimum ilevel minus 15% to clear it. Up until this interview was posted, there was some posters who were adamant that healer DPS was required to get past all DPS checks regardless of gear. NO. Only if the DPS is being carried by the healer. If everyone is overgeared, the added DPS from the healer shaves a few seconds off a clear. If the Healer is geared better than the DPS to a point that the dungeon can't be cleared without their DPS output, then the DPS just plain are terrible at their job.

*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

You know which bosses are good for Holy? The MSQ because they have lots of adds. Outside of those, I can't think of one where all the adds dogpile onto the healer.

Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

If there was a way to implicitly queue for DPS using a Tank or Healer, with a permanent stance-lock, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because then those that don't want to MT or don't want to Heal can just DPS and quit taking up the "fast queue" , it's bad enough that there aren't enough players who want to play the roles.

I'm actually surprised SE doesn't have dungeon mechanics that specifically target one healer in a way that would make "fast queue"'ers think twice. Like imagine a mechanic that causes all players to drop to 1hp and if both healers don't use their party healing in the next 5 second the entire party wipes.

[VanilleFang]

snip

I've personally run into healers who refuse to use CS. They will sit at 100% MP aND do nothing if healing is not required.

I have run into healers who cast Cure II and Medica II randomly, and do nothing else.

I've had co-healers who did nothing at all.

I have never seen a healer try to be a 5/6th DPS.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

That's exactly what is being said.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29


The dungeons are designed against the DPS output at the minimum ilevel minus 15% to clear it.

Right, here's where you make up your own little story again. You should pay closer attention to this part:

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Meaning: BCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i70, SCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i90 and FCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i110. While those were the highest level equipment obtainable before you could do coil - With exception of BCOB as it was introduced with the maximum item level at that time.

[Atlaworks]

I've personally run into healers who refuse to use CS. They will sit at 100% MP aND do nothing if healing is not required.

I have run into healers who cast Cure II and Medica II randomly, and do nothing else.

I've had co-healers who did nothing at all.

I have never seen a healer try to be a 5/6th DPS.

You should really buy a jumbo cactpot ticket.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Erm...

If I can be completely honest, half the time I queue as healer because I can pull out a lot of dps, with the minor annoyance of having to occasionally throw up a heal or two.