If you disable cleric stance during combat, when would you use it?

[Seryl199]

Make healing hard, then let's talk about the importance of Cleric Stance. Healing is the only role with down time in party play. DD's are ideally always maximizing DPS along with tanks to ensure timely elimination of threats, while tanks also continue to build enmity over other party members. Healers can only heal damage as it comes in, and have only a few choices of what to do during down time.

1) Do nothing, sit at full MP
2) Do nothing, wait for MP ticks
3)Use DD spells, inflict trivial damage
4)Use Cleric Stance, inflict meaningful damage

Take away Cleric Stance, and healers are left with largely a waiting game, playing whack-a-mole with HP bars, then going dormant until the next burst of damage. If healing posed more of a challenge that actually required you to keep your wits about you, this would be less of an issue, since healers would be occupied anyways. Bosses have been trending towards being more challenging (WP HM second boss has a short rotation with pretty damaging moves that can get out of control pretty fast, especially when mechanics are mishandled), but between overly simple trash, bosses, and massive overgearing, healers just aren't taxed hard in average content.

Cleric Stance remains as a great skill that chips in substantial damage while dealing with the copious amount of downtime that healers experience. It allows me to execute a meaningful action every GCD, something that both the tank and DD roles are expected to do. The only way to change this is to give healers actions that are more meaningful than killing the enemy, like some form of active buffing, or make things hit hard enough so that healers are forced to, well, heal.

[Risvertasashi]

Take away Cleric Stance, and healers are left with largely a waiting game, playing whack-a-mole with HP bars, then going dormant until the next burst of damage. If healing posed more of a challenge that actually required you to keep your wits about you, this would be less of an issue, since healers would be occupied anyways.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you haven't done t13? Or really, any fcob where people make mistakes, or any coil pre-echo...

Not that I disagree with the premise of your post, but there are fights like this in the game. Admittedly it's not really applicable to dungeons.

[Ghishlain]

I'm going to take a wild guess that you haven't done t13? Or really, any fcob where people make mistakes, or any coil pre-echo...

Not that I disagree with the premise of your post, but there are fights like this in the game. Admittedly it's not really applicable to dungeons.

To be fair to that bolded part, I will have to agree with with the poster you're quoting.

If S-E truly wanted to minimize the Cleric Stance usage in raid content, I feel they should increase the healing intensity so there are less opportunities for a healer to activate Cleric Stance. I wouldn't necessarily say increase the amount of DPS the raid bosses output, but instead increase the frequency they occur. Instead of one Flatten, they could add 3 Flattens at like 60% power over the course of 15 seconds. Stuff like that. Things that require the healer to potentially stay out of Cleric Stance longer to handle "oops" factor.

I find that suggestion is better than the paintbrush solution of "OMG DISABLE CLERIC STANCE IN DUTY FINDER".

The way I see it, we're getting more options. As has been noted in other threads, raid DPS checks aren't done taking healer DPS into account. You can find groups that won't make you DPS. But for those that enjoy that extra bit of minmaxing, we now have more tools.

I think this is a point that is sorely missed in many of these "Healer DPS" discussion. I like having the tools to play at a higher caliber than the average player, and I want to keep those tools. Not lose them. While I won't disrespect any healer who only heals if there are opportunities to go up and beyond your role, I won't praise them in the same vein.

[Risvertasashi]

Instead of one Flatten, they could add 3 Flattens at like 60% power over the course of 15 seconds. Stuff like that. Things that require the healer to potentially stay out of Cleric Stance longer to handle "oops" factor.

Isn't that called flare breath? I mean, ok, both healers aren't needed so 1 can cleric stance, but it's not like you can leave the tank completely unattended either. (Unless I'm doing something wrong or getting really scrubby PLDs..?) And while the encounter overall can be solo healed, the videos I've seen on it count on people not messing up... I'd say I have more t13 "farm" parties fail than not XD

Now for casual content.. CTs, dungeons, and so on, yeah the incoming DPS is... not very threatening. Shame Holy got nerfed, but it's still really fun to use ：D

[Ghishlain]

Isn't that called flare breath? I mean, ok, both healers aren't needed so 1 can cleric stance, but it's not like you can leave the tank completely unattended either. (Unless I'm doing something wrong or getting really scrubby PLDs..?) And while the encounter overall can be solo healed, the videos I've seen on it count on people not messing up... I'd say I have more t13 "farm" parties fail than not XD

Now for casual content.. CTs, dungeons, and so on, yeah the incoming DPS is... not very threatening. Shame Holy got nerfed, but it's still really fun to use ：D

Pretty much =p What I was trying to get at was "If Bahamut was using Flare Breath every 3-5 seconds and still flatten like every minute, would you have time to Cleric Stance?". Make the fights more healing involved if you want healers to DPS less. No give suggestions like removing Cleric Stance out right. The idea is to encourage higher levels of play, not neuter it.

And yeah, anything outside of the existing raid isn't too threatening. Not necessarily trivial either, but hardly greatly threatening either.

[Seryl199]

I'm going to take a wild guess that you haven't done t13? Or really, any fcob where people make mistakes, or any coil pre-echo...

Not that I disagree with the premise of your post, but there are fights like this in the game. Admittedly it's not really applicable to dungeons.

I've beaten T5 pre nerf, and progressed in T9 before nerf. I'm no raid champion, but I'm no novice and I understand that the caliber of healing is much greater in raiding. Since the OP addresses CS in general, I figured I'd voice when I use it generally, which is every standard piece of content, because it's easy.

[Risvertasashi]

Pretty much =p What I was trying to get at was "If Bahamut was using Flare Breath every 3-5 seconds and still flatten like every minute, would you have time to Cleric Stance?". Make the fights more healing involved if you want healers to DPS less. No give suggestions like removing Cleric Stance out right. The idea is to encourage higher levels of play, not neuter it.

Well. I guess I feel raid content encourages that already. Even though there are pauses, those moments of intense raid or tank damage do mean one has to watch/manage their mp. Flare breath, etc as is would still run a novice WHM (the kind that forgets to shroud, uses cure II when cure I spam will get by, etc) OOM, I think.

....I think if normal content approached that level of healing strain, there would be a riot xP (But I do disagree with "remove cleric stance" suggestions)

I've beaten T5 pre nerf, and progressed in T9 before nerf. I'm no raid champion, but I'm no novice and I understand that the caliber of healing is much greater in raiding. Since the OP addresses CS in general, I figured I'd voice when I use it generally, which is every standard piece of content, because it's easy.

Ok, it looks like I interpreted your post too broadly. Apologies for that.

[RubenSnizzle]

The only reason healers have any damaging ability in this game, is for the sole purpose of the main story & questing. Since you have monsters & bad guys to kill, you need something to damage them, while the idea isn't bad in it's own way, trying to force healers to DPS more in HW is kinda bullcrap.

I chose to play a healer because i like the job, if i want to DPS, i'll play a DPS.


Say what you want to me, but if you want a healer to DPS, go play WoW or Cabal Online.

[Risvertasashi]

I chose to play a healer because i like the job, if i want to DPS, i'll play a DPS.


Say what you want to me, but if you want a healer to DPS, go play WoW or Cabal Online.

The way I see it, we're getting more options. As has been noted in other threads, raid DPS checks aren't done taking healer DPS into account. You can find groups that won't make you DPS. But for those that enjoy that extra bit of minmaxing, we now have more tools.