Any new new in NIN's positional so?

[Sylve]

snip

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

2.4 patch notes. Dancing Edge is started to have a Flanking requirement to get the full 260 Potency after Gust Slash.
If it was a simple mistranslation, That mistranslation managed to make its way into the game, as the ingame tooltip for the skill reflected that Flank requirement.
That was corrected in a later patch, Though Ninjas in general were executing it from Flank with the expectation that it increased the potency, Myself included.
We were told pretty quick that the potency is the same from all around and that a patch would fix the tooltip.

My point is, even when that phantom requirement (translation mistake or altered design notwithstanding) was there tricking a lot of us into Flanking for it, no one cared when they told we didn't need to Flank.
It didn't make any difference whatsoever.

[Pluvia]

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

2.4 patch notes. Dancing Edge is started to have a Flanking requirement to get the full 260 Potency after Gust Slash.
If it was a simple mistranslation, That mistranslation managed to make its way into the game, as the ingame tooltip for the skill reflected that Flank requirement.
That was corrected in a later patch, Though Ninjas in general were executing it from Flank with the expectation that it increased the potency, Myself included.
We were told pretty quick that the potency is the same from all around and that a patch would fix the tooltip.

My point is, even when that phantom requirement (translation mistake or altered design notwithstanding) was there tricking a lot of us into Flanking for it, no one cared when they told we didn't need to Flank.
It didn't make any difference whatsoever.

To be fair that was probably because people within the first night figured out it didn't have any requirements and spread the news so a majority didn't have to even pretend like it did. Either way I would like to know what they're changing so i can get it down for the hell of it.

[Sylve]

To be fair that was probably because people within the first night figured out it didn't have any requirements and spread the news so a majority didn't have to even pretend like it did. Either way I would like to know what they're changing so i can get it down for the hell of it.

I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

[Pluvia]

I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

You and me both would be the trolliest thing SE could do. Honestly though we'll probably have it changed to be more like dragoons with mudras. Unless they drink the Kool aid and give them the same amount of positionals as monks.

[Sylve]

You and me both would be the trolliest thing SE could do. Honestly though we'll probably have it changed to be more like dragoons with mudras. Unless they drink the Kool aid and give them the same amount of positionals as monks.

I really do doubt that it'll more than 2 skills that get a positional.
3 at the most.

Dancing Edge is a good candidate. Though there really isn't all that many skills that make sense to add a positional too, but lets not forget that we're getting brand new weapon skills, which may be where the positionals get slapped onto.

[Nalien]

I'm going to be super amused if it ends up with Dancing Edge that gets a Flank requirement :3

Not as amused as I'll be when all they do is add a new Hide skill (Surprise Attack?) with a Flank requirement, one which no doubt will be as amazing as Sneak Attack.

Although looking at what they're doing to other Jobs, a new X Attack could be an amazing addition. Work it like Black Mages Enochian perhaps... Keeps Sution up and removes the cooldown for X Attacks. Then we have a new rotation in which we pop the new Flank Attack > Trick Attack > Sneak Attack > repeat, before the effect wears off... That would be the best way to implement positional requirements on Ninja. Would be nice if Sneak Attack wasn't so damned worthless...

Holy crap I kinda really want that now... A new passive buff which removes the cooldown on Sneak/Trick/Flank Attack. Flank Attack keeps Sution up for multiple attacks. Sution > Flank Attack > Trick Attack > Sneak Attack > Shukuchi back behind the mob.

[Adire]

snip

Well, I imagine the design choice to exclude positionals was made in part because of the view that the job was challenging enough to play to justify its DPS.

The intent was there to make it a non-positional oriented job from the start, and while there were of course people who played the job using positionals believing them to actually be implemented(and probably played it well), it was unnecessary.

Plus, back at that time, the job was new and for all people knew, it was the intended difficulty. Now we know better. And now we know that NIN is a job with a very definitive playstyle. I, along with a lot of people I would assume, choose to main it because we like the type of difficulty it has vs the type MNK and early DRG had.

I've said on other threads, there are many ways they can make NIN more difficult to play without adding positionals that appeal to MNK mains. They can add difficulty to appeal to the type of person who mains NIN, and that would be better in my opinion.

[Allyrion]

Well, I imagine the design choice to exclude positionals was made in part because of the view that the job was challenging enough to play to justify its DPS.

The intent was there to make it a non-positional oriented job from the start, and while there were of course people who played the job using positionals believing them to actually be implemented(and probably played it well), it was unnecessary.

Plus, back at that time, the job was new and for all people knew, it was the intended difficulty. Now we know better. And now we know that NIN is a job with a very definitive playstyle. I, along with a lot of people I would assume, choose to main it because we like the type of difficulty it has vs the type MNK and early DRG had.

I think you put too much emphasis on thinking SE handcrafted NIN difficulty to perfection without positionals in mind.
I think it's much more flexible than that, and they clearly think that adding positionals to manage would be within the range of mechanics they want for NIN.
Whatever they thought originally, they changed their mind and think we can handle the NIN rotation with positionals.

I've said on other threads, there are many ways they can make NIN more difficult to play without adding positionals that appeal to MNK mains. They can add difficulty to appeal to the type of person who mains NIN, and that would be better in my opinion.

You say that, yet I'm a NIN main and I obviously think adding positionals are okay.
I've argued this with you before, but don't get me wrong.
I think they can and should add a lot of interesting and challenging mechanics to Ninja going forward.
But I've also made it clear that I believe NIN isn't ready for that much change yet due to it only being live for one tier of raiding.
I want them to think carefully on what direction on how to develop NIN.
Positionals aren't a development or direction. They're more basic than that.


I think Positionals are to Melee as Casting is to Ranged.
Ranged get more dps standing still and lose dps moving, but some are certainly more mobile than other having instant casts or through stance switching (for the new BRD).
Every ranged still has to work around the idea that movement needs to be managed.
This is why BRD had to get WM.

For Melee, some have less positional bonuses than others (equivalent to having instant casts) but they should all still have to consider their movement.
I honestly don't think freedom of movement is a luxury any dps should afford.
I don't think NIN should be MNKs with knives, but having positionals doesn't do that.
Just like charging attacks is a basic function of ranged, positional attacks should be a basic function of melee.

I want to play a NIN and I want them to add interesting Ninja only mechanics.
I also want to have to consider my movement to some extent or lose some damage while doing all of that.
I think NIN will get some more interesting mechanics after Heavensward launch since it came out so late.

Sure, it's not great to see everyone else get more interesting changes.
But we shouldn't pretend things are equal here. NIN came out in 2.4 with the Final Coil.
Our launch was late and there's no reason to expect we'd get the same treatment.

[Adire]

snip

You may want to review the thread I posted on the last page. The person who posted it personally doesn't mind positionals but does see why people do mind them on NIN.

I also never said all NIN mains are like I am. I am saying that a lot of people do like NIN for its playstyle though, and preserving it is important in order to preserve diversity.

[Allyrion]

You may want to review the thread I posted on the last page. The person who posted it personally doesn't mind positionals but does see why people do mind them on NIN.

I also never said all NIN mains are like I am. I am saying that a lot of people do like NIN for its playstyle though, and preserving it is important in order to preserve diversity.

I read that. What I'm saying is that they're making a more basic design for all dps to consider.
You can see that with the addition of WM for BRD as well.
It's okay to not like positionals, play a class with less positionals then. NIN might not even have much.
But everyone should have to consider their movement to some extent.

Mudra lag certainly is an issue and I admit the Fuuton change is a bandaid fix for now.
That said, it's a technical issue and I don't think they're ready to make it client-side just yet.
I think people underestimate how much it would take to do that when almost everything is run server side.


The rest of that post is addressed by the fact that we simply don't deserve more changes yet because we haven't been out long enough for testing and thoughtful development forward.
Lack of positionals is not a play style in itself. It's just the context and foundation of how the rotation is framed.
You're not supposed to love your cast times as a caster, but you're supposed to consider it worth the payoff in the end.

Diversity should come in parts and DRG already barely has any positionals. NIN has one a minute and MNK has almost all positionals.
That seems to favor a lack of positionals more than it doesn't on live.
That's not more varied. It's less.

in most game, only one type of melee class have positional, it's the sneak rogue type class. not all.... for take an example from WoW, the warrior dps don't fight from flank or back, they are attacking wherever they want. same for the monk... positional don't definite melee, it your vision, not the reality! it will be nice to admit that your vision is not forced to be the one that will be good.

Well aware of how melee work in other games.
But guess what? FFXIV took positionals on a different level than any other MMO out there and made it a foundation for melee when the game launched.
And I personally think it puts all other games to shame because it has a cohesive design about battle movement.

So yea, I'm talking about FFXIV which I didn't think I need to state since this is the FFXIV forums, and SE clearly has a different vision.
Positionals are honestly one of the unique features of the game and it may not be the best thing ever but an aspect of movement consideration that was only for ranged in most other games.
Brilliantly, it's the opposite as well.
You have to move as Melee and you have to stay still as Ranged for maximum dps.
There should be different levels between Jobs but that's the basic guideline in this game. And it comes across as much more cohesive.