Any new new in NIN's positional so?

[FallenArisen0990]

Man, Ninja is perfect. I'm honestly not gonna miss the more importance of Goad. I rather they get rid of it in all honestly. The positionals aren't even that bad. Stop planting your feet to the ground and taking AoEs. The enmity control thing is only good for.... nothing. The hell am I gonna use it for? Unless we're gonna see more of Kaliya's head mechanics, I just don't know. Also the mudra lag sounds more of a personal problem than an actual problem. Only time it lags is when the server is lagging cuz I've only dealt with it on very rare occasions.

[Allyrion]

They removed positional requirements and added positionals bonuses.
Before they changed the DRG positionals, it was punishing to miss but it was still only 2 positionals to hit around 5 times a minute.
After the change, it's the same except the positionals were only bonuses rather than requirements.

Those old requirements were bad. I'll say that too.
Positionals should not stop a combo if you miss, or stop a buff like Heavy Thrust.
There's no reason to believe NIN positionals won't be bonuses. Because we have progressed passed those for the most part.
We do have a requirement positional but that's because it's a raid cooldown.


The range of positionals favor a lack of them between the 3 melee.
NIN still has everything it had before, and now it has something else to "multitask".
You don't need to have one or the other and I'm pretty sure NIN will not have as much as MNK.
Positionals won't suddenly define NIN, it will just be part of the flow of the rotation and people will need to learn to move while doing the rest.

And like I've said a few times now, people should already know how to move and cast Mudra.
If you can't, you're already potentially losing dps. Adding them simply adds it rotationally.

The scale has been pretty off anyway. The old DRG positionals were bad but still didn't happen often.
MNK had less at launch and then they made True Strike and Demolish have it.

Look at it -
NIN uses 1 every minute.
DRG uses 5 every minute. (Both before and after changes)
MNK uses 28 every minute.

How is that diverse or a decent scale? It clearly favors one side right now.

[BlueThunder]

Snip

Take into account for example that DRG cooldowns attacks (mostly the 3 jumps) will lock em in position for about a second or so.

Same with Ninjas when enemies reach the 20%, assassination locks you in place while its going.

Monk is the job complete free of any of his skills that would freeze him in place, making it the most mobile one of the three melees.

Surely, ninja still has only 1 positional every min, but a lot of your damage comes from your ninjutsu, which requires more button pressin that monks rotations and dance around.

As said, every melee has its own thing to worry about when dpsing and exploiting itself to the limit.

Monk: gotta keep spinnin' around.
DRG: Gotta jump and meet my ocasional positional.
Ninja: better not fuck up my mudras nor my trick attack, else it will be pain and shame.

[Adire]

snip

Let's take a look at those numbers.

We've got a job that uses 1 per minute, a job that uses 5 per minute, and a job that uses 28 per minute. As you can see, DRG is the middleground. If anything should have more positionals added to it, it's DRG right?

We need something for the people who love positionals to death, we need something for the people who like the middleground, and we need something for people who do not like positionals. Increasing the amount of them in the lowest amount job (and I stress this again, old skills are being changed) sways the overall spectrum over to the positional favoring side.

Though I personally do not see a problem with the current numbers. They provide a fair amount of choice. Choice is a good thing. You have a heavily positional job, a middleground, and a mostly positional independent job. Adding more to the mostly independent job will only subtract from the amount of overall choice we have. To preserve choice the most, it's best that the middleground get more positionals if anything.

The thread also mentions why mudras and positionals won't mix well.

The following categories address that specifically:

"While highlighting their strengths"

"Raising the skill ceiling/More Fun"

And this category presents a strong, relevant point to that as well:

"Reduce jobs' weaknesses to fit all jobs in all fights so nobody gets left behind"

It isn't just about NINs not being able to move while casting mudras. A decent NIN should be able to do just that. It's also about the insane amount of weaving in of CDs in tandem with oGCds and positionals we will have to do in very tiny time frames, all while dealing with the ever present and not likely to go away mudra lag.

There is a clear reason why positionals have not been on NIN skills other than trick attack this entire time. The sudden change of heart is odd and impulsive of a decision. Even Yoshi's words during the live letter were pretty much saying "Ninjas currently don't have to move enough, so we want to make them move more." Who knows if he has a deep seated, well thought out reason why they need positionals after all this time. If he does, he really didn't insinuate that he does. And the only reasoning for positionals I've seen anyone provide on the forums is "I'm okay with positionals."

Maybe jumping a bit too much there. As in, I doubt SE will do the same mistake by adding OLD DRG positionals to NIN new positionals. They will do as they are now, potency boost. As it is thou, NINs have the positional that suffers the most if missed.

Again, I'm not in favor of positionals for Ninjas, dealing with mudras is enough. But we'll have to see what they add and how.

They've already done that. They lessened DRG positionals and made the job much easier and are increasing NIN positionals and making it much harder, when it was already difficult enough to justify its DPS.

What's difficult to manage with the Ninja?

The specific higher difficulties of NIN management: Mudras (which have a much faster and much more critical oGCD vs what MNKs and DRGs have).

Huton (vs the automatically kept up GL that monks have if they are doing their rotation correctly and the one button Heavy Thrust that is specifically there to give the buff that Dragoons have and serves no other purpose).

DoTs with very different uptimes AND application damages, one of which (mutilation) does not have high application damage and so much be used much more thoughtfully when thinking about overall DPS. Both of DRG's DoTs have heavy application damage and are combo'd, so are worth using than beyond just the DoT damage. Both of MNK's do not have heavy application damage and one is form dependant. One of these should (Demolish) have benefits outside of simply the DoT damage (form switching). The other (Touch of Death) is not form dependent but like Demolish, does not have high application. Both can be applied similarly. Mutilation's strength is only through the DoT and is not dependant on combos to be applied to its full effect (vs Shadow Fang, which is), so whether it's worth using and when it's worth using is much more situational, and the NIN has to decide more on the fly if it is worth it when factoring in which buffs/debuffs are up.

Another difficulty: When to use trick attack. Trick attack only comes around once per minute, but it is by far the most important positional any melee has to do at the same time because of this and because of how hard it hits and how it applies vulnerability. Used at the wrong time (especially if you use your offensive buff cooldowns prior to using trick attack), you may have problems. If you suiton before a boss leaves the arena after you've popped your cooldowns, you've wasted a powered up trick attack. If you use it and the boss spins around to AoE someone, you've wasted your trick attack.

Another difficulty: Kassatsu. You have to try and time it right to have Kassatsu, trick attack, offensive CDs, and Mudra all off cooldown around the same time.

Are these things less difficult than monk? Maybe, but NIN does lower base dps than monk, so it's paying for it already if true. Are they less difficult than Dragoon? Definitely not. Dragoon is much easier to play now than NIN. Less managing of multiple things than NIN, less positionals than Monk.

It really feels positionals are really being added to NIN "just because".

Also, I can't say where the person's source was for oGCDs having positionals, but it's very possible so the concern is warranted.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

That's not a middle ground though.
15 positionals on one and 5 positions on another would be more of a spread scale.
I've already explained why NIN conceptually makes more sense to be closer to that middle ground being the faster class and one that should be more precise striking.

There isn't "choice" in that scale. It clearly favors your position.
There's one melee covered in positionals that completely dwarves the other two. DRG isn't a middle ground because it's not in the middle.
If people came to NIN purely to run from positionals, then they should just hop to DRG since that's the new lowest.

And I just disagree that NIN should lack positionals purely because of Mudra lag.
I don't see why it's that hard to deal with both. At worst, it eats into your GCD.
That's nothing compared to the issues of the old DRG who couldn't get through a combo or such.

They've already done that. They lessened DRG positionals and made the job much easier and are increasing NIN positionals and making it much harder, when it was already difficult enough to justify its DPS.

You need to stop saying that like if they made DRGs have less positionals.
They had 2 before and they have 2 after. They changed how they worked, which is progress.
No one is going to argue that positional requirements weren't bad, but bonuses are fine.
So they're adding positional bonuses to NIN which was never called into question.

I, personally, think Ninja can stand for more difficulty.
I don't think that difficulty has to be tied into positionals either, but I don't think adding them will make NIN that much harder to manage.
Honestly, there's no reason to talk about numbers before an expansion either. We don't know how potencies will change or things will scale.

On Live, though, NIN certainly doesn't actually have the difficulty to justify its dps. That's mostly because it does so much more than the other classes.
Of course that will change in 3.0 but everything will change, including the difficulty in other Jobs as well.

I'll accept that people don't like to dance, but this difficulty argument is just wrong.
Our rotation isn't that much harder that positionals are going to make our skill cap off the roof, even with Mudras and its lag.

Are these things less difficult than monk? Maybe, but NIN does lower base dps than monk, so it's paying for it already if true. Are they less difficult than Dragoon? Definitely not. Dragoon is much easier to play now than NIN. Less managing of multiple things than NIN, less positionals than Monk.

It really feels positionals are really being added to NIN "just because".

Firstly, this is not true. A NIN should never lose to a MNK of equal skill.
NIN is a good bit ahead and has higher base damage.

Secondly, you listed a good bit of diverse things you think NIN needs to manage already.
That's the nature of multi-tasking, right?
But then you're adding an arbitrary line saying your character's position shouldn't be one of those things, despite all of those being different types of tasks.

You say NIN difficulty lies else, but to describe it you have to talk about all types of things.
But positionals can't be one of them, because that's where the line is drawn.

You think they added positionals "just because". I think they didn't add it at launch "just because".
I think NIN only released without positionals because the Mudra system was new and wanted to test how people managed it.
The only positional mistranslation is likely evidence it was always designed with positionals in mind.
People did better than they expected and they even had to nerf NIN (but it's still the highest melee dps).

They're probably adding it because they believe the player base could handle the rotation with positionals.
That's easily the logical conclusion.



Lastly,
I know nothing I say is going to make people like positionals or the fact that there's not much more being added.
The latter is completely unreasonable but the former isn't. There's going to be backlash for a change like this, of course.
But some of these arguments like about difficulty or diversity go way too far, echoing off each other.

[Adire]

snip

I see it as a middle ground. If you increase positionals 5x on NIN, there's less of an option for people who want NO positionals, and more options for people who don't mind/want more positionals. Simply increasing the middleground (DRG) would allow DRG to be more appealing to people who like positionals without encroaching at all on people who do not.

Also, I don't see why making NINs hop to DRG because it's the new lowest is an acceptable solution. Why not just keep NIN the lowest?

And it also doesn't make sense to me. NIN should be doing precise striking, yes. But why would a NIN actively CHOOSE to strike anywhere other than from behind? Why, given that Ninjas are assassins, would it be most beneficial to attack from anywhere other than behind?

You're also getting the wrong idea from my posts...but you are wrong to a degree. Impulse drive used to be positional, did it not? Now it's not positional. Besides that, what I'm saying mostly is that DRG was made easier by removing the importance of positionals. Making something easier after it has had a long established difficulty is not nearly as distasteful as making something harder after its had a long established difficulty. DRGs did not have to relearn how to use their old skills correctly when positional importances were lessened. NINs however will have to when positional importance is increased on old skills.

Also, yes. NIN does have the difficulty to justify its DPS. It is probably easier than MNK, but definitely harder than DRG, BLM, and BRD. Not sure about summoner, but summoner has many issues right now anyways.

And no. Our rotation won't suddenly be harder. Taking into consideration that skills you've learned this entire time now have to be used a different way and trying to figure out how to weave them in when you've got timers counting down everywhere, mudra lag slowing down your entire rotation, and possibly multiple positionals that need doing at the same time however....

And the people who just "don't like to dance" aren't who I'm defending. I enjoy a good AoE dodgefest challenge myself. It's the homogenization choice rather than the creativity and diversity being preserved, the fact that many people just aren't comfortable (physically or mentally) with positional play and enjoy the alternative, and the unfriendliness the job has for positional play that bug me.

Firstly, this is not true. A NIN should never lose to a MNK of equal skill.
NIN is a good bit ahead and has higher base damage.

This is incorrect. It is WELL established that MNK does more base dps than NIN. Proof: http://sim.ffxivguild.net/ (Edit: If you read, some of the calculations are told that they may be off. This simulator is quite accurate for the melee jobs however, since their DPS is more sustained rather than sporadic, RNG dependent, and in bursts like BLM and BRD)

Secondly, you listed a good bit of diverse things you think NIN needs to manage already.
That's the nature of multi-tasking, right?
But then you're adding an arbitrary line saying your character's position shouldn't be one of those things, despite all of those being different types of tasks.

You say NIN difficulty lies else, but to describe it you have to talk about all types of things.
But positionals can't be one of them, because that's where the line is drawn.

If positionals were equivalent to managing timers, people would see them as equivalent to summoner DoT management...there is no line to be drawn here, because performing positionals =/= managing a lot of timers. They are not the same playstyle.

The only positional mistranslation is likely evidence it was always designed with positionals in mind.

I'm pretty sure the fact that they released without positionals says more about their intent than a mistranslation. I think it's a bit odd to say that a mistranslation is more proof that they wanted positionals than a lack of positionals is proof that they didn't want positionals.

But some of these arguments like about difficulty or diversity go way too far, echoing off each other.

I don't think anyone is "going too far" by being concerned about some things, and the arguments may be being repeated quite often, but that should tell you that the sentiments are shared by many people and rightfully so.

[Caraway]

I am reading this and I guess I am confused on some of the base points... Key one being; what is there difficult to manage about with the Ninja?

Now, before people try to pull out the "Cameron, you only have Rogue to 15 according to your Lodestone!" stuff, please note that I did have an alt with Ninja into Final Coil and was successfully meeting 2-3 DPS places without top end gear (so either I was playing with some poor DPS, or I managed the rotation well enough to get by).

So that out of the way... What's difficult to manage with the Ninja? I see people say Mudras. Okay, I can grant a little bit of that. Sometimes you might slip up and cast the wrong Ninjutsu, that can make anywhere from a minor dent (using the wrong attack skill) to a major one (messing up Huton). Anyone using a macro for Mudras should be discounted because of the inherent lag they add. But the lag part? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that. Why? Because your most common used Ninjutsu in hard content is going to be Shuriken. Unless Foe's Requiem is up Shuriken is going to outdamage Raiton slightly thanks to 1) slashing debuffs and 2) no impact to your GCD. Raiton will nudge your cooldowns back a bit. There's been math on this elsewhere in the forums and while it isn't much of a lead between Shuriken and Raiton it is there (you use Raiton while you're travelling if you would otherwise have used Shuriken).

The other bit of 'difficulty' I've seen mention is managing your buffs. Really? Somehow Ninja have that harder than the other classes? We have a pretty set rotation and don't have much in the way of buffs to really manage. It isn't a tough class and it's easy to get really high damage numbers, especially spike numbers.

The link to the Reddit post that Adire gave was mentioning positionals added to oGCD skills but I could not see any reference for this so I'm going to assume it's hogwash. That won't happen, simply put. So let's get that out of mind. So we have two camps for how positionals will be handled; monk, or dragoon. I am leaning more towards dragoon style positionals which is very minimal. And additionally those positionals are only for additional damage anyway. And how hard is it to skip back and forth over a three pixel line? You do not have to go all the way from a mob's left side all the way to its rear after all.

Personally, I look forward to the adjustment because I suspect that the added positionals will allow for a potency increase for a very, very minor increase in difficulty to play the class to it's full potential. I for one am excited to hit things even harder.

[Kallera]

Given everything else that was on my screen, it was nice not to have to worry about running around and potentially into an attack.

And I don't want to deal with monk like positionals in my combo, not while everything else is trying to one shot me and I have to do this that and the other thing while watching my debuffs. I am going to miss something, and I will die.

And I HATE DRG.

[FallenArisen0990]

After really thinking about this, I changed my mind and is all for the positionals. If it means I get to pump out more dmg, than so be it.

[Erudain]

As I've said in the other NIN thread, I play the 3 melee DPS, and I use all of them for different reasons going from personal taste to FC needs, if we need the high sustain dps I go MNK even with all the dancing, if we need burning and heavy hits I will go DGN, if there's no need of anything specific and I don't want to mind much about positionals and such I go NIN.
And that's what I like about the 3 melee, each has it's own way of being played, and I can use all of them depending on my mood.

Now, if SE turns NIN into a MNK with daggers, why the hell would I play NIN? for the looks?
Since I'll have to dance, then I'll just play MNK with the perks of not having to worry about mundras or goading WAR or other melees.