[plea] please fix Mudra Lag first, plus please reconsider added positionals for NIN

[Adire]

False. But in your defense many of those job users are wailing and gnashing their teeth as well. Go check it out if you don't believe me, NIN is not the only job which is getting big changes.

And seriously, the very nature of MMO's is an ever-evolving environment that by necessity get shaken up regularly. Shake-up, assess, adjust, assess, shake-up, assess, etc. It is not a new prgression by any means. MMO devs have been doing it since the 90's.



As long as the greater bulk of the positioning relies solely on the NIN, there really shouldn't be a problem unless said NIN just blows.

Not false. Please note where I said "Other classes are getting new concepts added with new abilities." NIN is the only class having changes made to current skills themselves. See this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Thread/page2

Did you completely miss what happened to BLM? The rotation is changing completely. So based on what info we have BLM is changing more fundamentally than Nin when it comes to huge game changing skills. What about Dragoon and it's new combo system? Your statement clearly flies in the face of blatant game changers that actually were announced for several other jobs. So quite simply put you're incorrect to sit here and ASSUME based on so little information that the full rotations of other jobs aren't changing. It's also an ASSUMPTION that the full Nin rotation is completely changing based on nothing more than the word "positional."

All this outrage when you clearly aren't paying any attention to what was happening to the rest of the jobs. ALL the jobs are changing. Every. Single. One.



You have NO IDEA what the changes are. You don't even know how drastic they are. You don't know if they make the job tougher. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. All you know was the word positional was spoken. You have zero context for what that means or how that will be applied. As far as you know the positional means to stand right on the back of the enemy where you're standing most of the time anyway making it entirely pointless to even care about it. You don't have any idea what you're talking about at all.

This all aside from the fact that every single job is getting drastic changes anyway.

I do actually know what I'm talking about, thank you for your concern. Please note what I just said to Spiritreaver1217, and please note the thread I linked for them.

The word positional means just that; that Ninja is becoming an increasingly positional oriented job. It was also said by Yoshida during the live letter that Ninjas will no longer be able to stay on the rear most of the fight. Or more specifically, he said that Ninjas currently do not have to move enough so positionals will be added. Does this really say anything to you other than "Ninjas are going to have a lot more positionals now"?

Why would he feel the need to say that Ninjas will have to move more because they don't have to enough now if he was going to just make positionals be rear based? I find your take on this to be quite odd and without substance.

All jobs are changing via NEW skills, however the old skills are not going to be completely irrelevant and remain unchanged. NIN however is having its old skills changed in a way that will potentially make its gameplay very different on top of having to learn whatever new concepts come with the new skills.

There is a huge, huge, huge difference between getting people to learn how to do new things with new skills but keeping the base gameplay of a job intact, and changing the foundation of a job so that it's substantially different from how it was and making it like another job AND adding new concepts with new skills in addition to that.

It's like building every job as a Jenga tower. Most jobs already have the foundations laid out and established, and are getting new blocks added to the top. With NIN, it's like the bottom blocks are being removed and making the tower have to be rebuilt, then having to play catchup as well with the new blocks that need to be added. That's a problem, as is job homogenization, which is affecting NIN more than any other job in my belief at this point.

And no, I did not miss what is happening with BLM. What is happening with BLM is not the same thing happening with NIN though. BLMs are getting new skills to bring in new concepts and new rotations. NIN is having long established skills suddenly changed. Big difference.

[Spiritreaver1217]

Not false. Please note where I said "Other classes are getting new concepts added with new abilities." NIN is the only class having changes made to current skills themselves. See this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Thread/page2

Sorry, since you are selectively remembering what YOU said, here is the bit again-quoting the whole first paragraph but will bold the bit that is indeed false

Big difference here. None of the other classes are having potentially hugely gamechanging changes made to existing skills. Other classes are getting new concepts added with new abilities. NIN is getting old abilities changed after this entire time. How would other players feel if existing skills were suddenly changed in their job in such a way?

Again, that is completely false. My other fav job that i have gotten to a respectable level is BRD and the new stance/song is potentially going to change several current job actions that are BRD's bread and butter so to speak. And speaking for myself as a player whose other major skills will be changed when i get access to and start using Wanderer's Minuet, i can say that i can't wait to try it all out and see how to incorporate everything into a playstyle i can work with.

And that's just another job i happen to play alot. Who knows outside of the dev team what other major changes jobs will have when the new stuff mixes with the old? Anyways i'm done with this post. Though i do wonder when the sky of Eorzea doesn't come crashing down if any of the naysayers now will revisit this and other knee-jerk reaction threads and say anything.

[Aethaeryn]

Though i do wonder when the sky of Eorzea doesn't come crashing down if any of the naysayers now will revisit this and other knee-jerk reaction threads and say anything.

This isn't a 'knee-jerk reaction thread' at all. This is a thread with people explaining why they really don't want positionals added to ninja, and requesting that SE fix the mudra problem that a majority of players deal with. "Every job is changing, get over it." is a non-argument.

[Spiritreaver1217]

This isn't a 'knee-jerk reaction thread' at all. This is a thread with people explaining why they really don't want positionals added to ninja, and requesting that SE fix the mudra problem that a majority of players deal with. "Every job is changing, get over it." is a non-argument.

Gonna have to disagree. Second sentence in the OP

Like the title says, imposing more depth to the NIN prior to fixing Mudra Lag is not good, IMHO.

Also, I must be honest... I'm very disappointed & sad that NIN will be receiving positionals on its rotations. Please reconsider.

I've mained MNK since 1.0~ until NIN's release...

I just don't think the thread was made just to ask SE to fix delays in the entering of mudras for the umpteenth time(especially since i think it was responded to at least once in the past).

But hey, that's just my opinion anyways.

[silentwindfr]

Again, that is completely false. My other fav job that i have gotten to a respectable level is BRD and the new stance/song is potentially going to change several current job actions that are BRD's bread and butter so to speak. And speaking for myself as a player whose other major skills will be changed when i get access to and start using Wanderer's Minuet, i can say that i can't wait to try it all out and see how to incorporate everything into a playstyle i can work with.

i stop you right there, bard will have the OPTION to switch of gameplay for gain more dps, where ninja is FORCED to use this new positional junk... it's quite different. you will still be able as bard to play you jobs like before, but now, when you don't need to move you will hit harder, for me it's all gain without downside.

on other hand ninja, that was never means to be made for positional fight, now will be changed for be like monk and dragoon... by adding a mechanic that was not means to be there from the start, that a reason of why a lot of player still play ninja even if the mudra lag is frustrating and the most punishing system of the game!
instead to adress our trouble, they add more trouble over it.

like i have said before, give me one reason to play ninja with this change? it will have the same positional system than monk and dragoon, but they will have in plus the most punishing and most affected by the lag system. why people will support this, when monk and dragoon offer more and less trouble? because the new system of chakra for the monk look really interesting and fresh in comparaison. and better no lag or punishement if you mess up.
the dragoon don't seems to get any weird systeme and receive tons of love recently.

soo far, instead to make the jobs evolve and devellop in unique feature.... they did decide to screw it and spit to the face of the people that did support this new type of gameplay. instead to adress our concern, they did decide to create more trouble for us and act like it's normal.

from my standpoint, they have screw badly and need to rethink the change of the ninja, the positional must'nt be the new system of the ninja, develop more the ninjutsu... even with mudra lag, i will have prefer more possibility from the ninjutsu than this.

instead to listen to the ninja community, they did listen the other community jealousing our difference. it's sad and it's our duty to let SE know that we are displease with this decision.

[SDaemon]

instead to listen to the ninja community, they did listen the other community jealousing our difference. it's sad and it's our duty to let SE know that we are displease with this decision.

NIN main here, I can live with the positionals even though I'm not fond of em, they don't really add anything to the job, but they aren't going to break the job.

[silentwindfr]

NIN main here, I can live with the positionals even though I'm not fond of em, they don't really add anything to the class, but they aren't going to break the class.

it's not about that it will break the jobs or if it's not doable, it will be doable and probably we will find a cycle that will work... but about the fact that it was not needed to the jobs.... that the point.
we are not here saying that it will be impossible to play it. but that it will make the jobs more painfull to be played, when monk and dragoon will be far easier.

like you say, yourself, it add nothing to the jobs.... why put it? instead to work around the ninjutsu or work on a system more different... for me, from the live letter, all i will keep, it's that... every jobs did gain new mechanic that will give more possibility to them, when ninja only get position, a refresh from huton with a skill and a skill for reduce the hate of your or a teammate. where i find the two other modification interesting.... it don't feel like needed for an expansion. it was QoL change, some stuff thet can add in a patch... nothing that will make me excited to play the jobs.... every freaking jobs have get new tool, mechanic or possibility that make them more deep... when ninja get nothing new.

the fact that it was added recently is not a decent escuse! it's a pitifull one. since it was added recently they had already the time to plan the next step of the jobs. when they have make it, they didn't introduce position. why do it now? why change totally a jobs that wasn't asking for this? because they had no idea of what add to the jobs. because them mudra are a pain to fix, because it will ask to change the whole game.

then it's our right and duty to say it's a mess up. we are not saying it's impossible to play, simply that they have ignore the playerbase playing the jobs. and did listen to other people... it's sad. because it means we didn't deserve as ninja player more... because we did decide to support a jobs added later.

ps: i must'nt be the only one feeling a bit betrayed by them decision and them way to handle the ninja for the expansion. between the lack of decent ninja glamour and this... do they hate the ninja?

[SDaemon]

it's not about that it will break the jobs or if it's not doable, it will be doable and probably we will find a cycle that will work... but about the fact that it was not needed to the jobs.... that the point.
we are not here saying that it will be impossible to play it. but that it will make the jobs more painfull to be played, when monk and dragoon will be far easier.

painful? how is it painful? at the moment we are free to attack from anywhere. I can and do attack from flank to back to flank moving however I please. currently having to attack from the back for TA isn't killing me, and neither will having to use a weaponskill from the flank and so on.

saying playing a mnk or drg come HW will be easier because of nin positionals is absolutely silly.

[Adire]

snip

Haha, I'm "selectively remembering"?

Let me bold the part you're continuing to ignore, since you only want to bold and quote part of what I said.

Big difference here. None of the other classes are having potentially hugely gamechanging changes made to existing skills. Other classes are getting new concepts added with new abilities. NIN is getting old abilities changed after this entire time. How would other players feel if existing skills were suddenly changed in their job in such a way?

So again, not false. Unless you choose to not see half of what I bolded, then it would be false in your eyes I guess?

It's not nice to intentionally take what people say out of context

Minuet is not a change to old skills, it's a new concept that bards will have to deal with that is added via a new skill. Positionals for NIN are going on skills that have not had them since release because the playstyle and difficulty were found elsewhere other than in positionals. Adding positionals to them was a lazy way to make playing NIN more difficult, and a way that makes the class float towards the playstyle that defines MNK. Instead of getting a completely new set of skills to introduce positioning, we're getting our old ones changed. This is not the same as what's happening with other classes and quite frankly is not fair. And now we potentially have one less alternative to position-heavy melee.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

It's not nice to intentionally take what people say out of context

It's also condescending to type a smiley emoticon after such a statement...

(see what I did there)


On-Topic: ultimately, I think it just comes down to spoiling the spirit of the Job & what makes it special.