Are the Twelve Primals too?

[Duuude007]

Shiva for example was very different to any other primal we have seen cause she possessed someone rather than existing independent of them.

I am still convinced that this is what happened with... (spoilers)

Louisiox too, but because he was tempered by Bahamut, it was not a voluntary posession. That and the existence of an actual Phoenix is missing from the Eorzean lore, inferring that it was memories drawn from Bahamut's memories of the ancient great bird which allowed it to coalesce with the aether Louisiox had gathered

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[treuhavik]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, I couldn't find mention of it on the lore forums. During the quest An Univited Ascian, Nabriales says explicitly to Minfilia that the staff Tupsumati is able to draw upon a vast amount of ether from its surroundings. He also states that this was why Louisoix didn't need a large number of crystals to summon the Twelve. This seems like an explicit statement that the Twelve are primals. Yet the peoples of Eorzea treat the Twelve with veneration whereas Ifrit et al are seen as monstrous. Are there different degrees of 'primal ness'?
Also what is the 'horn' that Nabriales mentions in the same conversation?

All of these questions have a single answer, as frustrating as that answer may be: "We don't know."

It is believed by Eorzeans that The Twelve are living beings (in one form or another), out there, somewhere. But, we have no evidence pointing either way on that. As Moose suggested, it's probable that they are simply myth, similar to real-world religions.

But, as Y'shtola once said,

And so myth becomes reality...

Primals are anything that is summoned via aether and prayer. And, according to the game so far, anything--living, dead, imaginary, or inanimate--is able to be summoned with enough of these resources. Now, could you summon "The Twelve"? Yes and no. For while you could, in theory, create 12 aetherial beings, there's nothing saying that those constructs are The Twelve. For all we know, Louisoux did nothing but summon an aetherial power resembling that of what is believed to belong to the Eorzean pantheon, and nothing more.

I'll also add that, when Louisoux's summoned power failed to subdue Bahamut, he channeled this aether inward, imbuing himself with the power of a primal. Bahamut did not turn Louisoux into Phoenix, as he wasn't grasped by the primal until after releasing the aether, along with his own (meaning death), to the land. And "The Twelve" did not turn Louisoux into Phoenix, because, well, they likely didn't exist in that time and place. There's also the fact that Louisoux explicitly states he turned himself into a primal.


As for the horns--or "keys", as they're frequently called by the emo terror group--all we know is that they're devices (and there are many of them) what channel unimaginable amounts of aether. As far as we know, the use for this aether isn't exclusive, though, the obvious purpose for it would be summoning. Also, the WoL is referred to as "the Final Key" on an occasion or two, iirc. So make what you will out of that.

[Viridiana]

I am still convinced that this is what happened with... (spoilers)

It's also what the Sahagin leader was trying. Whether he failed because his Echo was the Ascian Echo or because he was disembodied at the time Leviathan arrived, I can't be sure.

[Duuude007]

I'll also add that, when Louisoux's summoned power failed to subdue Bahamut, he channeled this aether inward, imbuing himself with the power of a primal. Bahamut did not turn Louisoux into Phoenix, as he wasn't grasped by the primal until after releasing the aether, along with his own (meaning death), to the land. And "The Twelve" did not turn Louisoux into Phoenix, because, well, they likely didn't exist in that time and place. There's also the fact that Louisoux explicitly states he turned himself into a primal.

Granted Phoenix was not explicitly created by Bahamut, there was a lot going on in that event, so I will dissect it a little to explain my reasonings. Including more on Louisiox's motives to restore Bahamut and, perhaps, how a primal could possibly temper another primal.

Louisiox effectively sacrificed himself in order to collect all the Twelve's wasted Aether & create a super- Blade of Aether (Arrow of Aether?) with which to destroy Bahamut, as was described in the post Chryssalis story. Somewhere in the mix, Bahamut managed to temper him, but not in time to prevent the blade from tearing his body asunder.

(WoL repeated this process to a smaller scale, in Praetorium and after Chryssalis. The Blessing of Light was the means to draw in the Aether the first time (sans living sacrifice), the Horn and manufacted wand the next time, Moenbryda being the sacrifice.)

Just like Iceheart, Louisoix began humanoid, was transformed (with individual willpower + sufficient aether [in his case Dalamud] to sustain the form), and transformed back to humanoid upon his defeat. I personally believe 'being accepted as a host' and 'turning into' are one and the same, a question of semantics.

Phoenix Down may be an item one can find in their journeys... which can be used to raise another adventurer, but the historical memory of such a being is largely missing from the lore, and as the twins infer, no memory exists of an actual Phoenix from the past, and needs to be kept secret explicitly to avoid resummoning in the future. Since all other primals seem to have some connection to a past entity, I am convinced that the memory of Phoenix came from Bahamut's living past, which in turn allowed the Aether (technically within Bahamut as well, while in the form of the blade) to alter Louisoix in such a way that his new servant would be more capable of fully restoring said Elder Primal, free of his celestial shackles. (logic suggests that Louisiox's ascension should have occurred before his inevitable death, to allow the 'rebirth' ability to be enacted.) Under Bahamut's Tempering, Louisoix would then become Phoenix whenever it was expedient for Bahamut's support.

[myahele]

It's interesting, that there's no hard evidence of a Phoenix existing in the past, yet it's legend persists throughout.

It like the memory loss of when Louisoix casted that spell that saved people, yet now they all forgot the specifics of that incident.

[treuhavik]

Louisiox effectively sacrificed himself in order to collect all the Twelve's wasted Aether & create a super- Blade of Aether (Arrow of Aether?) (...) Just like Iceheart, Louisoix began humanoid, was transformed (with individual willpower + sufficient aether [in his case Dalamud] to sustain the form), and transformed back to humanoid upon his defeat. (...) the memory of Phoenix came from Bahamut's living past, which in turn allowed the Aether (technically within Bahamut as well, while in the form of the blade) to alter Louisoix in such a way that his new servant would be more capable of fully restoring said Elder Primal (...) Louisiox's ascension should have occurred before his inevitable death, to allow the 'rebirth' ability to be enacted.

Your post defies nearly everything I wrote in mine, the details of which are all fact... The aether used by Louisoux at Carteneau wasn't garnered from "the Twelve" or Dalamud (if this was not your meaning, it wasn't made clear), it was channeled via Tupsimati, and the prayer from the thousands wishing for salvation. The idea of Phoenix didn't come from Bahamut--Louisoux WAS Phoenix before even approaching Bahamut (Glowstick Louie, if you will, = Phoenix), he said himself that he became phoenix, an ancient symbol of rebirth. He became a symbol of rebirth (one that he already had knowledge of) because he wished the warped realm to recover from the chaos that had befallen it. And this is exactly what happened when Louisoux returned his aether to the land, despite Bahamut snatching a good portion of it up in an attempt to maintain his corporeal form.

Head-canon is fine and good, and if you'd like to speculate on what bridges evidenced facts, you're more than welcome. But, especially when answering questions, let's try not to present said conjecture as selfsame facts.

[KarstenS]

I am still convinced that this is what happened with... (spoilers)

Louisiox too, but because he was tempered by Bahamut, it was not a voluntary posession. That and the existence of an actual Phoenix is missing from the Eorzean lore, inferring that it was memories drawn from Bahamut's memories of the ancient great bird which allowed it to coalesce with the aether Louisiox had gathered

.

As far I understood the story, Bahamut has not tempered Louisoix. He has tempered Phoenix, that was a part of Louisoix at this time.

There's also the fact that Louisoux explicitly states he turned himself into a primal.

Don't know if there are differrences in the translations. But in the german version he told the prays of the Eorzeans together with the big cloud of aether summoned the Phoenix and he was within the focus point of the summon, what lead to the result that he got part of Phoenix.

[Vejjiegirl]

There was a point in the story (I can't remember the exact point) where some Ala Mhigan youths were going to summon Rhalgr The Destroyer under the instruction of an Ascian.
I'm willing to bet summoning Rhalgr would be the same as summoning any primal.

[Duuude007]

The aether used by Louisoux at Carteneau wasn't garnered from "the Twelve" or Dalamud (if this was not your meaning, it wasn't made clear), it was channeled via Tupsimati, and the prayer from the thousands wishing for salvation.

I wasn't arguing this, but the intent was to summon the might of The Twelve to seal Bahamut in a new dalamud-esque prison. It failed. the purpose of alllll that aether was aborted, and therefore Louisiox changed strategy. He took all that aether that was composing the Twelve, now wasted and floating above him, and was able to transform into the primal. After which he was enthralled.

The idea of Phoenix didn't come from Bahamut--Louisoux WAS Phoenix before even approaching Bahamut (Glowstick Louie, if you will, = Phoenix), he said himself that he became phoenix, an ancient symbol of rebirth.

Yes, he did become it. That doesn't mean it is notably different process from Iceheart's transformation. And while I will concede the point about rebirth intent for Eorzea, whether he was aware of an actual Phoenix being of the past is 'head canon' as you put it, especially if nobody else knew. Once you are said being, it makes sense that you are aware of your ancient existence, lol...

He became a symbol of rebirth (one that he already had knowledge of)---

You state this as a fact, where does it say this? Other primals distinctly had specific entities of the past from which to draw the memory, and the form, of the primals, and with the existence of Phoenix down feathers in Eorzea, you cannot discount that such a being did exist, even if long forgotten. As the twins detailed.

because he wished the warped realm to recover from the chaos that had befallen it. And this is exactly what happened when Louisoux returned his aether to the land,

As I said above, I am not arguing this.

despite Bahamut snatching a good portion of it up in an attempt to maintain his corporeal form..

This quoted snippet above seems to be conjecture of your's, wasn't it simply absorbed by him when Louisoix surrendered the aether of which he was composed? We know that when this occurred, the healing of the planet was interrupted, the Allag tech draining the air around them of the aether, and corrupting the clean aether where the hulks had pierced the planet. The remaining aether between Louisiox and Bahamut was concentrated enough that when Bahamut's broken body was pushed underground , Louisiox was close enough to be drawn in with him.


Based on some additional information brought to light, I believe that the birth of the primal was in the form of a sword of aether, and when it coalesced around Louisiox, he was granted the gift of immortality and rebirth.

We know that he was transformed, and after a great deal of aether from Bahamut was released, he released his own. This gave Bahamut the opportunity to enthrall him, but had no real basis on his own survival. The allag machina were to blame for that.

As Louisiox said, "As you can see I did not perish". No death, no self rebirth. Merely enthralled as a primal.

We know that Bahamut was incapacitated and underground because of the coils. For 5 years all of this was kept hidden from the people of Eorzea.

We know that Bahamut was repaired enough to regain sufficient consciousness to shake the world, 5 years after the Battle of Cartenau. As seen in the End of an Era cutscenes. Until that point, even with the amnesia dispelled, nobody knew what happened to Bahamut, and we were forced to investigate corrupted aether to confirm Urianger's suspicions.

We know that when Lahabrea was defeated, the apparent amnesia about the WoL's deeds in the Battle of Cartenau was resolved, and the amnesia was resolved even earlier for Cid. Yet memory of the being Phoenix remained nonexistant. Did Louisiox somehow know of a being the rest of Eorzea (even his scions) did not and still do not know? Did such a being exist in present-day history books at all prior to Bahamut's transformation to primal? We cannot say. What we can confidently say, however, is that if he did not remember such a being, Bahamut was certainly old enough to remember it. Which would satisfy the 'belief in a being + aether' rule we are used to.

"I became Phoenix" is a statement lacking context. If nobody remembers Phoenix, the idea of 'rebirth' without knowledge of the former entity flies in the face of how other primals are created in Eorzea...
Unless... his unusual proximity to Bahamut (being inside the elder primal) allowed his wishes to draw upon an actual ancient being of Bahamut's past. Whether it was of Bahamut's cognitive interest or not. And once he became the primal, he would be aware of its existence, just as the twins were, albeit surprised. Which differs drastically to the global awareness of WoL, and acceptance that it is you- When that amnesia was resolved, everyone knew the WoL. Nobody knows where Phoenix came from, and yet the twins acknowledge that it

I still have many questions, but saying I am contradicting canon... that was never my intent. That is why I hate using the word 'fact' without supporting evidence.

[treuhavik]

This seems to be conjecture of your's, am I right?

Everything I've written here is supported by current, in-game dialogue. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor patience to do research for others at the moment.