Tanks thrown out of farms for low DPS?

[Wizhard]

I guess its more about the attitude. I will of course do my 300-400 dps but if im expected to by the group, i will also expect the dps to be at 500-600.

[PArcher]

DPS problem =/= tank problem

If the tank can do more damage to help contribute to progression, then they should. Yes, ultimately the DPS should be using proper rotations for maximum damage output, but the tank isn't given a free pass simply because they only focus on positioning and eating whatever the boss (or adds) throws at them. By your logic, it's perfectly okay for a SCH to not contribute to DPS if the party is behind on a phase change by a couple of percent or so. Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

This is not always the case.

Tanks and healers doing good DPS is going above and beyond their jobs.

Tanks are there to keep aggro on enemies, position everything correctly and make sure the party is safe (as far as tanking can keep them safe. Unavoidable raid damage, DPS derping to Divebombs or not running out of cleaves when dodging Nerve Gas is not a tank issue).

Healers are there to heal, keeping the tanks alive so they can do their job, healing up unavoidable raid damage and healing derpy DPS who dodn't know how to avoid easily avoidable damage

DPS are there to...well, kill things. None of the fights are designed to require tanks or healers pushing DPS; as far as progression goes, if you don't meet the DPS check its because you aren't geared enough. Yes, you can overcome DPS checks earlier thanks to heal and tank DPS (or pentamelding the groups entire gearsets with grade 4 materia), but that's not how the fights were designed, ultimately. Look at the minimum ilv to see what was essentially intended for each turn at minimum.

If you're failing a DPS check with Echo...well, your DPS suck. Plain and simple. If you want tanks and heals to DPS to make up for those crappy DPS...well, unless you're going to pay them to play better than the DPS, don't expect them to stick around once they see what's really going on.

Pretty much, if you want tanks and heals to go above and beyond...DPS better be doing so too; not just doing enough DPS to meet the checks, but pushing themselves to do the most they can (which can definitely include using food and X-Pots)

[JzBen]

Tank dps as of now is part of the package in terms of FCoB. Where, because of how the fights are designed it really isnt game breaking to do decent damage that isnt absolutely amazing (more so on Warrior as OT where in say 10 and 11 youre a DPS) I main Warrior (huge advocate of tank dps), so my view on acceptable tank damage may be a bit more than what the average PF can expect but I wouldnt kick a tank. After all its PF where at the very least i'm expecting some sub optimal play with people i dont know, I only expect good numbers with my static and friends.

Just like how when i pull good numbers in p1&2 of T12 in PF and we get 4 Bennus, i dont get mad for not getting 3 because its not worth the hassle to min/max that much in PF and as long as you're killing it you're gold. I expect my level of play from people i'd choose to invite to play with, not those i want to randomly join. (still certain tiers tanks should be hitting though, anything less is pure laziness)

[TetsuyaHikari]

If I'm in a pickup group and I'm being required to go above and beyond as a tank or a healer just to compensate for bad DPS I'm going to take my leave and find a better group. Not everyone shares your "Just pickup the slack so you can get it done" mentality.

I'm not saying "pick up the slack and get it done". I'm saying whether you have bad or good DPS is irrelevant. You should be trying to do your best regardless and if you can afford to shave off some VIT on your build for more STR to get more damage in, you should do it to help your party one way or another. A DPS that performs badly due to terrible rotations is one thing... They're simply ignorant.

You're even worse than they are if you acknowledge the fact that you have holes in your performance, but simply refuse to do anything about them.

EDIT:

Tanks and healers doing good DPS is going above and beyond their jobs.

Tanks are there to keep aggro on enemies, position everything correctly and make sure the party is safe (as far as tanking can keep them safe. Unavoidable raid damage, DPS derping to Divebombs or not running out of cleaves when dodging Nerve Gas is not a tank issue).

Healers are there to heal, keeping the tanks alive so they can do their job, healing up unavoidable raid damage and healing derpy DPS who dodn't know how to avoid easily avoidable damage

Noooooooow we're getting somewhere. Yeah, I see players like you a lot running around Mor Dhona. Hell, there are plenty of people in the real world that behave this way too.

If their job description doesn't include doing something else, they're not going to do it (most of the time anyway) unless there's some kind of reward for doing so. I can't tell you how many healers I've seen that simply wanted to be just a healer and heal throughout the whole battle, despite having the MP to contribute to DPS. I have more respect for players that are willing to go above and beyond their jobs in order to accomplish their goal.

If you're fine with just being another healer, good for you. You'll leave more of an impression though if you're a healer that not only heals, but pops Cleric Stance to DPS when possible, then switches back to healing when necessary. It says a lot about you as a player and a person when you are willing to do more than what is required of you for the sake of others.

Personally? I try to better myself in any way I know how in order to help the party out, even if it's only a little bit. Nothing states I have to pop Shadow Flare on the boss every time it wears off. I could just sit back and pop Adlo and Physick the whole time while standing in the background with well over 3,000 MP, even halfway into the battle, simply because I haven't been using any DOTs or Cleric Stance + Ruin II. Now, don't try to sit there and say Shadow Flare, Ruin II, and DOTs are "part of the job". SCH is specifically classified as a healer, so according to your logic... Any SCH that applies DOTs and all of that is apparently going above and beyond their job since their job is a healer.

Do you also give tanks shit for applying Stoneskin during battle even though it has nothing to do with tanking? A good player learns how to adapt to a multitude of situations using all of their tools at their disposal while a bad player limits themselves despite having multiple options for multiple situations.

[Elusana_Celah]

...

I perform how I need to perform to get a job done and depend on my team to do the same. If the fight is killed in 10 minutes or 8 minutes it matters not, the DPS checks are met and we're clearing I am happy. I am not considered "bad" for doing what my job entails instead of going above and beyond.

[PArcher]

SNIP

Lol, someone don't read everything. First, if you read back a few pages, you'll see I'm a tank who pushes my DPS as default, many times doing more DPS than the DPS themselves in PF. So...try again please.



At its basest, what I said is 100% true. Whether you like it or not. A healer's job is to heal, a tank's job is to tank, a DPS's job is to meet the DPS check and get the kill. In a standard PF or any DF, that's all you can expect of anyone, and getting mad at people for not doing more is idiotic on your part

The issue here is expecting that tanks do far more than any other role by default. Tank perfectly, pop CDs perfectly, do great DPS (even when tanking). Whereas people aren't expecting DPS to do similarly (perfect rotation, perfect CD usage, food, X-pots), and healers generally get a pass as well (due to having to now baby the tanks)

Its one thing to be with your static, or other people you know, and expect them to be the best tank/heal/DPS possible. Its another thing entirely to expect that out of randoms.

[TetsuyaHikari]

I perform how I need to perform to get a job done and depend on my team to do the same. If the fight is killed in 10 minutes or 8 minutes it matters not, the DPS checks are met and we're clearing I am happy. I am not considered "bad" for doing what my job entails instead of going above and beyond.

And that's why I said you settle. You couldn't care less if it's in 10 or 8 minutes just as long as you clear it. You're simply content with where you are and that's great for a lot of people. In fact, a lot of players actually struggle to reach that point where they are doing well enough that they feel they don't need to try any harder, so they don't.

However, you're simply justifying your lazy behavior by saying "Oh, I cleared it, so that's all that matters." On paper, you'd be right. In execution... Not so much. By your logic, if you were to participate in a marathon tomorrow, you wouldn't care less if you were last or first, just as long as you pass the finish line since that's all you set out to do. Some people want more than that though. Sometimes just getting by isn't enough for them.

If you're able to push content faster, but simply choose not to, that's just giving yourself (and your party) a handicap. You should be doing your best whenever you can and if you don't feel your best, you can probably still try to clear, but at least you'd have an excuse since you aren't feeling well physically or mentally. Still... That's definitely a bad mentality to have though, especially since you surround yourself with people that think the same and believe that it's okay to not give it their all since you aren't giving it your all. Next thing you know, the entire party is slacking, when they could be doing better, because they've been conditioned to believe it's okay to settle for a clear in content rather than a good clear.

So yes, you are a bad player if you not only have the means to be a better player, but are willingly choosing not to be better, and go above and beyond when doing your job.

Lol, someone don't read everything. First, if you read back a few pages, you'll see I'm a tank who pushes my DPS as default, many times doing more DPS than the DPS themselves in PF. So...try again please.



At its basest, what I said is 100% true. Whether you like it or not. A healer's job is to heal, a tank's job is to tank, a DPS's job is to meet the DPS check and get the kill. In a standard PF or any DF, that's all you can expect of anyone, and getting mad at people for not doing more is idiotic on your part

The issue here is expecting that tanks do far more than any other role by default. Tank perfectly, pop CDs perfectly, do great DPS (even when tanking). Whereas people aren't expecting DPS to do similarly (perfect rotation, perfect CD usage, food, X-pots), and healers generally get a pass as well (due to having to now baby the tanks)

Its one thing to be with your static, or other people you know, and expect them to be the best tank/heal/DPS possible. Its another thing entirely to expect that out of randoms.

I didn't read back a few pages. I read what you posted recently since that's what was being discussed and because you replied back to my post. If you do actually push your DPS as a tank, then great. That's what you should be doing.

By definition, what you said is actually 100% true. You're right. However, things aren't simply black and white when it comes to a player's performance. Let me ask you this (and please don't lie, cause I'll know if you do).

Would you rather have a healer that simply heals 24/7 or would you rather have a healer that heals on top of doing DPS when they're not healing? Would you rather have a DPS that sticks to dealing damage 24/7 or would you rather have a DPS that also has cross-class abilities which help him survive longer as well, despite those abilities not being part of his job? Would you rather have a tank that's geared to the teeth well beyond what's required for any of our current content and has 1,000+ extra HP for padding or would you rather have a tank that has sacrificed that extra HP for additional STR to help the party DPS and push progress in end game content?

If you honestly believe that a healer is just a healer, a tank is just a tank, and a DPS is just a DPS, then you're an even bigger fool than I am. I'm certainly not expecting tanks to do more though. I'm expecting every role to do more. We come into FCOB, I want to see a DPS bringing food (and using X-Potions if necessary), using those perfect rotations they've had hours upon hours to practice, popping CDs appropriately to maximize their damage output, etc.

I want to see a tank doing more than just positioning and popping CDs to survive. You see a DPS coming near you and getting hit by the boss, and they're about to die? Don't just follow the ABCs and stick on the boss. Pop cover (if you're PLD, of course) and try to protect the DPS if you can. Go that extra mile and try to make sure he stays alive long enough so the healer can keep him up and you can keep fighting without losing someone.

Now, that's certainly not to say the tank should sacrifice themselves for the sake of the DPS, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen a PLD simply ignore an injured DPS right beside them and let them die. It's like once you reach end game content, PLD players completely forget they even have cover. I have saved actually quite a few players, DPS, tanks, and healers alike, when using this.

However, many parties are fine with having tanks that simply stand in the same spot the whole time and just keep the boss positioned properly while popping CDs to stay alive. Nothing more, nothing less. That, in my opinion, is just lazy and unacceptable... Especially if you have the gall to consider yourself a "good" player while not even using some of the skills available to you.

I don't see a problem with expecting any player to play to the best of their ability. If they're giving me less than their best, they're not only wasting their own time, but they're wasting mine as well. Do you honestly believe I think to myself, "Oh, it's just a DF group. I'll just give 60%." or something? I play as good as I can, regardless of the job I'm playing, or the company I'm with, which is exactly why I expect others to give me that same respect.

I couldn't care less if we're not in the same static. Don't come out there half-assing shit just because we don't know each other. You want to sit around with your thumb up your ass? Do it on your own time.

[Elusana_Celah]

So yes, you are a bad player if you not only have the means to be a better player, but are willingly choosing not to be better, and go above and beyond when doing your job.

Not everyone plays a game to stress themselves out with going 'above and beyond' what is necessary to achieve a task. I play for fun. I play a white mage, I heal fast as heck, I memorize boss rotations, I preplan my heals, I try to cover for DPS or tanks taking unnecessary damage, I have exceptional raid awareness skills, I react to "oh shit" situations like a failed red fire in T12 and heal through it, I do not switch on Cleric's stance and invest in melding accuracy to my accessories so I can deal more DPS in a farm. I will use holy during dungeon runs but I ain't gonna do it in a coil farm.

If the difference between me and a good player is me not switching on Cleric's Stance and trying to push 300 DPS on a white mage during a farm instead of all the other talents I can bring to the raid then consider me a terribly bad player for life.

[Adire]

snip

This. The day I frequently have to play the game as if it's a career or be yelled at and the day I'm considered bad at my role even while doing my role's job perfectly is the day I move onto another game.

I contribute beyond my role when I am comfortable doing so, which is actually quite often. But people shouldn't have to feel coerced into it, it should be optional.

If you treat the game as a corporation and see other players as deadline squeezed employees who are lazy if they aren't working themselves to death doing jobs meant for multiple people at all times, I think it's best to re-examine why you play.

[Eidolon]

If you honestly believe that a healer is just a healer, a tank is just a tank, and a DPS is just a DPS, then you're an even bigger fool than I am. I'm certainly not expecting tanks to do more though. I'm expecting every role to do more. We come into FCOB, I want to see a DPS bringing food (and using X-Potions if necessary), using those perfect rotations they've had hours upon hours to practice, popping CDs appropriately to maximize their damage output, etc.

Right here is the issue. "Using x-pots If necessary." This is the issue everyone is trying to point out to you. This is what's driving people to be annoyed by this topic and to argue so heavily against it.

The tank should be using STR gear if necessary, not mandatory.
The healer should be DPS'ing if necessary, not mandatory.
The DPS shoudl be popping pots if necessary, not mandatory.

What we have here is a situation where people are saying tanks should be required/mandatory to do DPS on top of their already required tanking role. Many tanks may not be up to that standard. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I will do it for everything. There is a time and place. And just because I can do it, doesn't mean all tanks can do it. I'm happy when I get a freaking tank that doesn't die in T10 to charges and holds threat. That's fine for me. If I'm there as DPS, I''ll push that DPS so the tank can focus on his job..... THAT is teamwork.