Answers About the Archons

[Fenral]

Even if the tattoo ends up referring primarily to a larger group that the Circle of Knowing had a schism with, I'm fairly confident sure she was Circle.

My understanding was that the Circle was specifically the group that came with Louisoix to Eorzea, and that Moenbryda was left out for reasons, but I had enough emotional difficulty as it is re-watching the CT scenes the once, so I'll admit I haven't gone back through 2.5 again yet.

While I could make up excuses all day, though, don't forget the main reason SE gives people the Circle of Knowing tattoo: simply to let you know that someone is legit. It's an effortless way to imply a specific backstory without wasting time actually telling it.

If that was supposed to make it hurt less, thank you for trying. (Didn't work, though I suspect I'll live.)

[Anonymoose]

My understanding was that the Circle was specifically the group that came with Louisoix to Eorzea, and that Moenbryda was left out for reasons, but I had enough emotional difficulty as it is re-watching the CT scenes the once, so I'll admit I haven't gone back through 2.5 again yet.

Dug it up just in case!

Full oft did he impress upon us that knowledge existeth to serve the greater good. This sentiment, however, was contrary to the nation's policy of neutrality, which censured intercedence in the affairs of foreign lands. In spite of vehement opposition, he founded the Circle of Knowing and journeyed hither to the heart of Eorzea. Through his noble sacrifice was the realm spared its doom. Yet this great soul, whom all should rightly have honored, was branded a pariah in his own land. His peers did accuse him of forsaking his duty as a man of learning, and of meddling in the course of history. When he left Sharlayan behind, Master Louisoix gave no word to signal his intent to Moenbryda. Close as they were, as master and disciple, she was deeply wounded by the sudden exclusion from his confidence.Above all, however, she was confused. Try as she might, she could ill comprehend her master's motive. The slanders that were heaped upon him after his passing served only to inflame the turmoil within her.For years upon end, she knew not what to believe, torn as she was 'twixt the man whom she revered, and the man who forsook her and his duty both.

This quote actually makes it very ambiguous, doesn't it? It could strongly hint that the tattoo is from an original non-Circle purpose that they were all a part of or that he formed the Circle and then left. I might have to dice my theory up a bit - that the tattoo is part of a larger meaning and the Circle did not include Moenbryda.

Something tells me I'm going to have to discard assumptions built on having seen the tattoo since 1.0... Gonna need to see with fresh eyes.

First impressions, I suspect that "record the past to read the present" is a longstanding Sharlayan thing, and that those who do so earn the tattoo. I also suspect that Louisoix's schism with tradition was that he tried to tack "read the present to write the future" onto the end of it, and that the Circle of Knowing represents that break with the nation. Because Louisoix is specifically said to have formed the Circle, but the "learn the past to understand the present" is a much older sentiment, I suspect that the tattoo =/= The Circle of Knowing.

Suspect being the key word in all of those sentences. If it is the case, it's possible that almost all of the confusion originates with Louisoix's exposition including that recording the past to understand the future was the Circle's thing, never clarifying that only the future part the Circle's alone.

Like I said, though, I can very clearly tell now that a few years worth of knowns, unknowns, and assumptions are at play in my head and blocking me from putting the pieces together cleanly and confidently. I'll need to dig it all back up and look at it anew.

If that was supposed to make it hurt less, thank you for trying.

"Hurt" is definitely the last thing I intend, more or less (though, if I had to choose, yeah, less, lol); I just mean that there may be bigger hints in the mechanic of using it than in what people actually say in the game, sometimes.

[Fenral]

I just mean that there may be bigger hints in the mechanic of using it than in what people actually say in the game, sometimes.

Oh, I fully understood the mechanic at play, but that's why it hurts. I let myself consider his role in a larger unfolding drama only to find out that he had none, so far as it goes, and not only would I never see him again (before my journey's end, after which all bets are off), I wasn't even supposed to want to, because that would mean depriving the world of some great, "irreplaceable hope."
(Tl;dr, Koh "Noah" Rabntah is a bit insensitive.)

I am highly curious as to how long we'll be teased with these incomplete pieces before getting some definite answers. My understanding was that Louisoix was a bit of an iconoclast, so he can't exactly have had a ton of followers jumping of the neutrality boat with him, but if Moenbryda is any indication, there are at least a few more out there than we've met.

G'raha's near-blank backstory is especially aggravating to me, because some definite connection to Louisoix and his atypical (dare I say, "un-Sharlayan") ideals would have been a much more reasonable (and, to me, acceptable) explanation for his actions than what we actually got: blood and destiny. But whatever he may have been, for now he's been left as just another component of the Tower.

We're slated to getting more of at least a few of our Sharlayan friends in the expansion, if perhaps only through the Echo, so we might get a clearer picture after of the whole 50-hour ordeal. Krile, please wake up.

[Anonymoose]

I think I've found my smoking gun on the neck tattoo!

You'll have to be the judge on this one; I can't rightly tell if I'm seeing this through the lens of my own theory, or whether my theory actually was pretty close and just needed this information to sand off the bad assumptions.

Here's the context: When you first meet Moenbryda, Y'shtola has an optional Small Talk that basically says, "I know she's different, but she's the best of the best. She wouldn't have the tattoo, otherwise." Each language went a very different route of communicating this idea, and I think that when you put them all together you get the truth. Here are all of the lines, and my interpretations of each.

As always, my translations are amateur - do correct me if you can do better.

Only those with proven expertise receive the mark─as our newcomer has. Pay no heed to her manner.

The mark is official and bestowed; it's specifically Sharlayan, and it has cultural meaning.

シャーレアンでは、何らかの分野で秀でていないと、「賢人」の称号を名乗ることはできないわ。そして、彼女もまた「賢人」の証を身に刻む者よ。
In Sharlayan, if you do not excel in a specific field, you cannot claim the title of "sage." She has engraved the proof of "sage" into her flesh.

In Sharlayan, achieving a certain degree of excellence in a focused field of study grants one permission to claim the title, "Sage." You can exhibit proof of this status by bearing the mark.

La “marque des sages” n'est attribuée qu'aux personnes dont les connaissances dans un domaine spécifique ont été rrreconnues par l'ensemble de la communauté scientifique sharlayanaise. La porter est un honneur qui n'appartient qu'à l'élite de nos savants.
The "mark of the sages" is attributed to persons whose knowledge in a given field has been recognized by the Sharlayan scientific community. To bear it is an honor that belongs to the most elite of our scholars.

The tattoo as a mark of status is recognized by the Sharlayan academic world at large.

Ich will nicht sagen, dass wir Exegeten besser wären als die übrigen Gelehrten Sharlayans, aber fest steht, dass wir uns nach Kräften um Exzellenz bemüht haben. Jeder von uns hat sein Spezialgebiet. Das erlaubt uns, große Wissensgebiete abzudecken und dennoch gründlich zu forschen.
I don't want to say that we exegetes are better than the other Sharlayan scholars, but there is no doubt that we have done our best to achieve excellence. Every one of us has a specialty. This allows us to cover large areas of knowledge, yet still research them thoroughly.

Many people can be given the title "sage," yet they may study very different fields. Exegesis is an analytical interpretation or explanation of a text, especially a religious one. "The Exegetes" is a title you might give the Circle of Knowing, considering that one of their first-and-foremost foci was to study and interpret the Divine Chronicles of Mezaya Thousand Eyes.

Therefore...

The theoretical "larger" group than the Circle of Knowing is real. The tattoo is symbolic of a very large and diverse Sharlayan group - the sages - who are academically recognized throughout the nation as the best of the best in some accepted field.

The Circle of Knowing were counted among their number for their study and interpretation of the Divine Chronicles, learning about the past Astral and Umbral eras to properly understand the text and see the present within the proper frame. Louisoix went rogue, deciding that not only did he want to understand the previous verses in the proper context, but use this knowledge to predict the Seventh Cycle of the Eras and intervene, forestalling the coming Calamity (theorized to herald Oblivion and the reign of Darkness) for however long it took to beat it.

Moenbryda was a disciple of Louisoix, but seems to have been given the title of sage for her research into aetherial sciences, not the Divine Chronicles. When Louisoix formed the Circle of Knowing and came to Eorzea, it filled her with doubt that haunted her especially after his death up until the moment she sacrificed herself to destroy Nabriales.

Rammbroes was of the Circle of Knowing as a sage studying the diffusion of knowledge itself, eventually settling into Allagan knowledge and becoming the leader of the Sons of Saint Coinach dig in Mor Dhona.

G'raha is a member of the Students of Baldesion, a group of scholars with their hands in everything esoteric, arcane, forbidden, and forgotten.

Let's put it in real world terms.

The tattoo means you've obtained a doctoral level excellence if your field.

• Circle of Knowing: Ph.D in Theology
• Moenbryda: Ph.D in Aetheriology (Physics)
• Rammbroes: Ph.D in Anthropogeology (Anthropology)
• G'raha Tia: Ph.D in History

How'd I do? Did I figure it out?

[Fenral]

How'd I do? Did I figure it out?

That's about what I suspected, actually, but I hadn't found anything in-game to cement it. Nice work. I try to catch everyone's small talk, but there's no way to go back and read through it again, so I assumed they just hadn't dropped that line yet.

My above points on G'raha still stand, unfortunately. He was sent from Val strictly to "observe" the expedition and abide by the decisions made by Cid and Ramnbroes: you'll note he's the one character in that story who very specifically avoids making any input in favor of one direction or another ("save it" or "destroy it")... only to hijack the entire operation at the last minute and remove both the tower and himself from the present flow of time. I understand the story is supposed to be about him discovering that he, too, can take an active role in history, but the afterlife metaphor in the execution still makes me rather uncomfortable.

With as little as we got from him directly, we can only speculate on his precise motivations, but the extra info I got from the Japanese script suggested he simply thought that it was the only way he could be of any use to anyone ever, which from most perspectives is actually quite tragic. Fortunately, the point of Desch as a character in FF3 was that everyone has more than one role to play, but suffice to say I'll be kicking Cid in the head until the tower opens again.

[Allyrion]

That's about what I suspected, actually, but I hadn't found anything in-game to cement it. Nice work. I try to catch everyone's small talk, but there's no way to go back and read through it again, so I assumed they just hadn't dropped that line yet.

My above points on G'raha still stand, unfortunately. He was sent from Val strictly to "observe" the expedition and abide by the decisions made by Cid and Ramnbroes: you'll note he's the one character in that story who very specifically avoids making any input in favor of one direction or another ("save it" or "destroy it")... only to hijack the entire operation at the last minute and remove both the tower and himself from the present flow of time.

With as little as we got from him directly, we can only speculate on his precise motivations, but the extra info I got from the Japanese script suggested he simply thought that it was the only way he could be of any use to anyone ever, which from most perspectives is actually quite tragic. Suffice to say I'll be kicking Cid in the head for most of the expansion.

I don't see how it's tragic that he was able to fulfill discover and fulfill his family line's destiny, that was passed down in riddles for many generations.
These kind of sacrifices are meant to be bitter-sweet but he tapped into a wish passed down from not only from his heritage but the Allagan civilization as a whole.
Few could dream of touching something so great and grand, or having nearly as much meaning to their lives.

From what I could gather, he grew up knowing he had a greater destiny.
It wasn't until he found the truth about the Allagans and the Cyrstal Tower that he became fully realized.

[Fenral]

Few could dream of touching something so great and grand, or having nearly as much meaning to their lives.

I actually just updated my post, but what got me about that logic is the entirely unspoken notion that he somehow would have been lesser as a person for not taking the absolute furthest irretrievable extreme upon uncovering the truth. Naturally, aside from a brief tinge of regret, the entire scene is written so that that idea of what would happen if he chose not to sacrifice himself simply isn't allowed to come into play, but it's a rather thin patch of ice they were standing on, and I think they knew that. If and when the tower does come back into play, somehow, he will need to be either a completely unrealistic heroic figure, or we can expect to be crying a lot. I'm also aware that I hold a minority opinion on this, so we don't need to derail this thread any further.

[Belhi]

This makes me wonder, what was Yda's field of expertise suppose to be? Thancred I could make a few guesses at but Yda leaves me completely in the dark. She doesn't strike me as the sciency type. Maybe she has a knack for ancient dialects or something.

[Enkidoh]

Since they first appeared in Gridania at the start of 1.0 Yda seemed to just appear to be Papalymo's 'bodyguard' of sorts, as she indeed comes across as something of a scatterbrain (her first comments upon jumping off an airship in the Black Shroud is she thought she was dead and even calls the player a 'psychopomp') - although she does have moments of surprising clarity, much to Papalymo's chagrin. There was also at least one incident in 1.0 where she seemed to show some kind of aetheric sensitivity, accurately perceiving a shift in aetheric currents (which preceded a treant appearing). Not to mention the two of them managed to capture Dunstan, who not even the best Wood Wailers or God's Quiver could find or subdue.

And lets face it, in the showdown between Gaius and the Circle in Mor Dhona in 1.0, she was the only one of the Archons to actually land a hit on the Legatus, showing that her talents lie elsewhere besides mere study. Which probably accounts for the reason why two Archons were sent to Gridania originallt by Sharalyan instead of just one - Yda is the 'brawn' where as Papalymo is the 'brains', which requires them to work together.

This was clearly shown in the 2.55 story when

Papalymo offered to stay behind to slow down the pursuing Brass Blades and Crystal Braves to allow the player, Minfilia, Thancred and Y'shtola to escape, Yda unhesitatingly remained by his side to help him, not willing to let him sacrifice himself without her there too. I must admit I tore up at that scene, being Gridanian aligned in both 1.0 and ARR and having known them since the very beginning of my journey in FFXIV it was like saying goodbye to close friends. ).

But I digress...

[Fenral]

We... know nothing about her, or any of them, really. Urianger is obvious, Y'shtola and Papalymo easy enough to guess, but Thancred's a low-Intelligence high-Wisdom type, if you pardon the D&D terminology. Yda, though... she's not classically smart from what we've seen, but she can stop bullets with her fists, could probably give Godbert a run for his money physically (and that's a lot of money), and nobody but Y'shtola has ever questioned her as an asset to the team.

If I had to guess, her area of expertise could be the underlying science behind, for example, the discipline of the Fists of Rhalgr. In other words, using aether to enhance one's own physical attributes. It may be that she's simply a prodigy, and even though it's the only thing she's good at, she's good enough at it to have earned her mark.