Dark knights and progression

[Casper]

I doubt that PLD will be replaced as MT for anything serious. The fact that they use a shield means they take currently ~10% less damage than someone without one, and this will only get better with better shields ; that helps a lot their position as a MT. The other thing is, PLD reason to exist is to be the sturdy shield of the party ; they have an awesome collection of defensive CD that is only bound to get better with the expansion. Even though we do not know much about DRK, they will NOT have as good a CD collectiona s PLD, because then the two of them would be too close in design.


That means that while i could see specific instances where DRK is the best MT (like DRK is the best MT for some rare bosses), in most cases, PLD will probably remain the MT of choice for hard progression content. Note that for easier content, who cares ? Everything will go.

As for OT, currently a warrior offers several interesting things. Thing is, their DPS as OT is nothing particular; the only thing great about their DPS is the fact that when they need to pick up tanking every now and then, they will do much more damage than a PLD while in tank stance, since every 2 minutes they can totally negate their damage reduction. They offer some sweet utility with storm's eye and storm parth, but honestly, it is really easy to see DRK offering different but as valuable utility.

In fact, it is likely that they will not compete on what a war is good at either -- which is DPS while in tank stance, especially when not asked to be in it constantly.

Based on all this, my guess would be this: DRK will be best used as an offtank, like WAR, and will provide higher utility / versatility than a WAR, at the cost of a reduced damage output in tank stance. Both PLD/DRK and PLD/WAR combos will be viable, and the mileage of groups may vary between the two.

[SpookyGhost]

PLD/WAR = Progression
WAR/DRK = Farm

Just guessing, but that's how I see it playing out. We'll have 2 weeks to play around with DRK before normal Alex, then 2 weeks to try DRK out in normal Alex before Savage is released. If DRK is viable for whatever position, we'll know when Alex Savage releases.

[Alphras]

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

And even if they botch it they have enough time till Alexander Savage to fix it.

[Nutz]

It's pretty difficult to say without knowing any DRK abilities at this point, nevermind the fact that there are several unknown abilities between PLD and WAR that will also be in the mix at 60.

From the looks of it (which isn't much) DRK will be more similar to WAR than PLD, and PLD and WAR will likely get new abilities that fit their current repertoire nicely. It's unlikely that PLD will gain mostly damaging abilities while WAR gains mostly defensive ones, for instance. I'd think that this means PLD +WAR/DRK will be the most likely combination, but who knows? WAR+DRK might offer some very interesting utility perhaps.

[Arkenne]

Well, from the one defensive skill shown by the PLD in the benchmark, I see it pretty hard for them to be removed... I mean, they have a frigging new shield that actually shield things?! :/!!

What if it can null an AoE damage in a certain zone or protect anyone behind the PLD? The strategy potential of something like that would be hardly replaceable if at all.

[Risvertasashi]

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

[SpookyGhost]

Nobody used WAR MT for world first progression because at low gear levels, PLD was superior due to having a shield and being able to Hallowed one of the Flattens. Hallowed is basically the big edge that PLD has over WAR for MTing in progression because it allows you to just skip over one tank buster to see more of the fight.

WAR, meanwhile, can do 2 specific things as MT for 13:

1.) Mitigate every Flare Breath with IB. This makes the shield not as big of an advantage as the shield only works on Flattens and auto attacks.

2.) More damage as MT, with basically free reign to use Unchained whenever it's up due to how things line up if done correctly.

The main problem for WAR is that Flatten happens every 50s-ish, as opposed to every 60. This forces the WAR into a situation where he cant rotate Veng -> Thrill + Conv w/ IB and has to use other CDs (including Infuriate) very carefully. The WAR will undoubtedly take more damage from Flattens because of this, on top of PLD being able to ignore 1 Flatten entirely, so for progression (and damage not being an issue) PLD would be the superior choice.

However, if you do run into a DPS issue and Hallowed isn't necessary for the point you are at in progression, then WAR MT could be the better option. This also requires the WAR to have a brain, which is suprisingly hard to come by. DPS was never really an apparent issue for most groups, so they stuck with PLD MT. However, this is just T13 we're looking at - Alexander Savage will surely have tighter DPS checks and if Hallowed isn't necessary then we could certainly see the higher DPS tank comp taking the lead; whether thats WAR MT/PLD OT, WAR MT/DRK OT, or DRK MT/WAR OT is a mystery. It could very well even be DRK MT/PLD OT.

But yeah, WAR MT was fine for T13 progression, just Hallowed was an easier workaround for seeing more phases since progression pushed so quickly. If you were lagging behind, WAR MT could've been a viable option but it wasn't explored since most groups defaulted to PLD MT.

[Risvertasashi]

This also requires the WAR to have a brain, which is suprisingly hard to come by. DPS was never really an apparent issue for most groups, so they stuck with PLD MT.

To be fair, PLDs without a brain (or much of one) are a very hard to heal through the flarebreath/flatten combo as well. The difference between a good PLD and a mediocre one there is night and day.

But... all in all and barring fight-specific mechanics that might give a particular tank an advantage, why wouldn't you use the more defensive tank for progression MTing? It will be interesting to see where DRK falls, since if it's debuff based that will basically cement PLD as MT for mobs that absolutely truck the tank, a la using Storm's now.

[Alphras]

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

Well we did. There is not really much of a difference between WAR and PLD MT in T13, except that the Healers need to know how to handle Holmgang, if you want to use to cheese one flatten/flare breath combo in the first phase, and that the WAR has it easier managing cooldowns later on.

Edit: There is no big difference between healing a good WAR and a good PLD in general anyway (except HG vs Holmgang of course). PLD taking less damage is a huge misconception. It all depends on the timing of the fight.

The main problem for WAR is that Flatten happens every 50s-ish, as opposed to every 60. This forces the WAR into a situation where he cant rotate Veng -> Thrill + Conv w/ IB and has to use other CDs (including Infuriate) very carefully. The WAR will undoubtedly take more damage from Flattens because of this, on top of PLD being able to ignore 1 Flatten entirely, so for progression (and damage not being an issue) PLD would be the superior choice.

We never ran into this problem, since we tank swapped for each flatten in the first phase, which made it a joke concerning tank damage. But you are right, the CD management in a 50s window is more difficult for a WAR.

You can also ignore one flatten/flare breath combo with Holmgang, but your healers need to know what they are doing.

[Dawning-Blue]

Maybe DRK could be a solo job class. Can tank and DPS