DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Sapphic]

I think for the people against the ideas of parsers (at least for now), their point and argument is similar to those that are for it. In that the person who does that 1/10 output will still do 1/10 output and be fine for it in the content mentioned,

So you are saying those who are happy performing below minimum requirements for content are the only ones who should be taken into consideration for an addition of a personal parser? Don't those who want to improve, who maybe after seeing their performance with a parser will strive to improve if below what they think they are, for those who use it properly, all those people don't matter?

Those who play terribly may be upset by a personal parser being added. What about those who end up with those players and unable to clear content because the former just don't care? Trying to do content but getting put with someone who doesn't care or think that they are playing properly isn't upsetting when others point out and give advice which they ignore because they think they are playing to a level they can do whats needed. Those may not believe the other player, but when they can see hard numbers saying they are not performing in a way that is beneficial but a detriment to the party, it may shake them up.

Trust me, players are already being kicked for underperforming due to unnificial parsers, having or not having personal parsers will not change that.

[Welsper59]

So you are saying those who are happy performing below minimum requirements for content are the only ones who should be taken into consideration for an addition of a personal parser? Don't those who want to improve, who maybe after seeing their performance with a parser will strive to improve if below what they think they are, for those who use it properly, all those people don't matter?

Those who play terribly may be upset by a personal parser being added. What about those who end up with those players and unable to clear content because the former just don't care? Trying to do content but getting put with someone who doesn't care or think that they are playing properly isn't upsetting when others point out and give advice which they ignore because they think they are playing to a level they can do whats needed. Those may not believe the other player, but when they can see hard numbers saying they are not performing in a way that is beneficial but a detriment to the party, it may shake them up.

Trust me, players are already being kicked for underperforming due to unnificial parsers, having or not having personal parsers will not change that.

Why would they suddenly not matter? Are you implying that right now, because the parsers are not officially supported, that they don't matter? Are you implying that everyone shuns players without parsers and that literally everyone will prevent any access to content to these players? If someone wants to be better, they'll find ways to do it. They'll look up rotation/priority/gearing guides. They'll seek help from others. Following these guides or the advice given will likely give you that extra edge to perform decently (see nearly all forms of content in this non-hardcore raiding centric game). Having a parser does not change this from how it is now.

The existing unofficial parsers serve as that extra measure for endgame raids, and Yoshi-P himself has stated that they don't mind the idea of people using parsers, they just can't support it (meaning you don't go about announcing it to the world, bad mouthing people with it, etc). Just like how it is to learn about how to play your class, as a console user, you'd also seek out the aid of someone who has a parser, if you're interested in it. There's NOTHING wrong with the idea of that being the case.

The fact people get kicked currently isn't of much concern to the argument. There is an established goal in mind usually, but being kicked as a result of the parser (namely if exact numbers or usage is mentioned), is a reportable offense. It's the potential outcome from it being made openly available. Again though, just because they don't officially support it, doesn't mean people can't literally use it or find others who do. They don't mind it as long as it's not being misused, and this is exactly why they don't want to officially support it. It's a potential safeguard for those who are the target end of someone who does misuse it.

As a note, I did edit my post earlier, after you apparently posted this reply (albeit of different concerns). But yeah, as I mentioned in that edit, I'm not against parsers.

[Sapphic]

Why would they suddenly not matter?

Because general argument against parsers is that those who are performing under the minimum standard needed for content may get upset by being able to see that they are performing lower than they think they are.

I'm not advocating a scoreboard or a party wide parser, just a personal parser so you can see yourself, and no-one else, how you are performing. Which will give players a solid reference of what they should/could be attaining to, to be able to clear content they are stuck on.

[Gilraen]

I'm not advocating a scoreboard or a party wide parser, just a personal parser so you can see yourself, and no-one else, how you are performing. Which will give players a solid reference of what they should/could be attaining to, to be able to clear content they are stuck on.

This I have no problem with. I don't think anyone here has a problem with this. But it's not what's being asked for. What is being asked for is some kind of party tally of everyone involved 'for improvement's sake'. As has also been pointed out, the potential for abuse from such a tally is too much to be permissible. We already alienate people enough with such excuses as low HP, low iL and even number of times killed in a run. We don't need to add to that with a parser.

[Malevicton]

As has also been pointed out, the potential for abuse from such a tally is too much to be permissible.

You seem to take this as a given, but a lot of people disagree. As far as I can tell the only abuse is that people who were rude already would start being rude with numbers. I can see how parsers might exacerbate pre-existing douchebaggery, but it's not gonna create new problems. It's not like we have to get abstract or hypothetical either; parsers are far from unknown territory. Plenty of other games have them and they work fine (and don't tear the community apart).

Do you have anything besides anecdotes to support their abuse potential?

[Massterchef]

We don't need to add to that with a parser.

They are already used by any PC player that wants to know their own DPS which happens to be a lot of people. Where is the chaos and shaming en mass that you are talking about?

Excuses aside, you are just afraid that people will be able to identify your poor play with proof. Is it any surprise that you just completed second coil last month? Which would suggest you don't attempt content when it's relevant or have any perspective on DPS checks.

[Gilraen]

They are already used by any PC player that wants to know their own DPS which happens to be a lot of people. Where is the chaos and shaming en mass that you are talking about?

That's great and all... but I don't play on the PC so I don't know what my numbers are and frankly I don't care. I've never cared. I don't play games to 'push myself', I play them to have fun and relax. If you find it fun to push yourself then great, more power to you. Just don't drag me into your power fantasy, I don't want any part of it. Nor should anyone else be forced into your idea of fun. This is the concern. People using publicly accessible parsers to try and push others without consent. "But they're consenting to it by taking part." No, no they aren't. They are taking part to take part. Nowhere does taking part include giving consent to ridicule, be it constructive or otherwise.

[Darra]

That's great and all... but I don't play on the PC so I don't know what my numbers are and frankly I don't care. I've never cared. I don't play games to 'push myself', I play them to have fun and relax. If you find it fun to push yourself then great, more power to you. Just don't drag me into your power fantasy, I don't want any part of it. Nor should anyone else be forced into your idea of fun. This is the concern. People using publicly accessible parsers to try and push others without consent. "But they're consenting to it by taking part." No, no they aren't. They are taking part to take part. Nowhere does taking part include giving consent to ridicule, be it constructive or otherwise.

Your "arguments" are pathetic. No-one is pushing you into doing anything. It's a simple concept to grasp (except for you that is). If you choose to try joining a raiding team with aspirations of getting server firsts, then you need to accept that you'll be playing by their standards. Those people aren't approaching you and saying "join my team and do XYZ dps or I'll publicly shame you". Are you and those people you're "protecting", so pathetically weak minded individuals that you'll "feel pressured" into conforming to someone else's standards, when you aren't even going to be playing with them anyway?! If you choose to play with the top 5%, then you are by definition agreeing to their standards because you already share them or are willing to adopt them.

You constantly bring up the same argument time and again about how someone will be publicly ridiculed or harassed without once presenting any evidence that this would happen on the scale you're implying it would. Do you know why it wont happen on the scale you believe it will? 1: Not everyone is a dick, if you think that they are then you're a fool who should go find a therapist. 2: because the TOS forbids publicly naming and shaming AND it forbids harassment. An official parser does not mean that the official stance on harassment and naming and shaming will change.

Now this point I find bizarre:

I don't play games to 'push myself', I play them to have fun and relax. If you find it fun to push yourself then great, more power to you. Just don't drag me into your power fantasy, I don't want any part of it

If some of us find it fun to push ourselves and want others in our PF's or static groups to share the same idea, then please explain how we are dragging you into our power fantasy? Oh you mean because we can see your DPS numbers officially? That somehow means we're going to make you push yourself? Should you find yourself in a PF of one of us you seem to take issue with, you'll find 1 of 3 things happen if your DPS sucks: 1 you'll be kicked, possibly with the comment "your DPS is too low" or 2: You'll be kicked with a comment along the lines of "your dps sucks learn to play noob" or 3: Nothing will be said, and you'll be carried but you might not be accepted into the next group. Please enlighten me again, as to how you're going to be pulled into someone else's power fantasy. The fact of the matter is, you're not going to find yourself playing with the people you fear will ridicule you, and if you end up in a DF with them, so what? If your DPS is poor then they're already trash talking you behind your back and as long as they don't say "my parser tells me you are doing bad dps", then they can comment all they want on your DPS, without fear of reprisal, as long as it's not harassment.

[Massterchef]

That's great and all... but I don't play on the PC so I don't know what my numbers are and frankly I don't care. I've never cared. I don't play games to 'push myself', I play them to have fun and relax. If you find it fun to push yourself then great, more power to you. Just don't drag me into your power fantasy, I don't want any part of it. Nor should anyone else be forced into your idea of fun. This is the concern. People using publicly accessible parsers to try and push others without consent. "But they're consenting to it by taking part." No, no they aren't. They are taking part to take part. Nowhere does taking part include giving consent to ridicule, be it constructive or otherwise.

Post is pretty irrelevant to anything I've said. Nobody is pushing anyone. But this further solidifies my point that you really have no perspective on the issue.

[MythToken]

E Is it any surprise that you just completed second coil last month? Which would suggest you don't attempt content when it's relevant or have any perspective on DPS checks.

This is unnecessary. The idea that we don't understand the importance of parsing, dps checks, ect. Just because we are not on the cutting edge of raiding is flawed logic. Can you stop attacking individuals who are not part of your self imposed elitist status, and talk about the issues at hand.

And for the record I have attempted/ beaten content before nerfs/overgear ect. Sorry that I don't care about it enough to do it every patch.

Information is important, dps efficiency is important. We get it.

I think there will not be shaming on a global scale, just because we have dps meters in game.
It is however naive to think it won't change the nature of the community at all.

And SE's hesitation to bring this to fruition is based on its player base, which probably has you as a minority.
Money talks.

tia