"Eureka, the Forbidden Land" thories [Crystal Tower SPOILERS]

[lilirulu]

(snipped the first part as I'm not replying to it)...

Male miqo'te are rare NPCs, so having him show up at all was actually kind of surprising. Anyway, male miqo'te aren't the only race / sex combination underrepresented in the story; there are no major female elezen, much less one in the Scions and/or voiced (unless you count Alisae, and the Binding Coil is for most intents and purposes optional)... oh, wait, Iceheart is a female elezen. There is exactly one voiced Roegadyn male: Merlwyb's aide what's-his-name, implied to have been Mistbeard. He showed up in and hasn't been seen since 2.2. The only other recurring non-Merlwyb Roegadyn NPCs are comic relief (Hoary Boulder, Trachtoum), Rammbroes, or Slafborn; none of them are voiced or play a significant role.[/quote

SE can't have all races/genders/clans represented, especially as major NPCs, at all times it's just unfeasible and at least in some of these cases (like Highlander and Hellsquard) we'll most likely see more when we go to Ala Mhigo where they are much more common.

(Also, I did the math and that'd be 20 major NPCs without Au Ra.)

Eynzahr wasn't just implied to Mistbeard he was outright stated to be in the Hullbreaker Side-quest.

Also, Biggs was voiced in the MS.

So one antagonistic voiced female Elezen who showed up in 2.4 and 2.5, and one benevolent voiced male Roegadyn who showed up in 2.2.

If you want to get into clans it's even worse... forget their sex, there are zero Hellsguard...

Hoary Boulder. 2.55 has even set up for him to have a much bigger & serious role in the future.

...Keepers of the Moon, or Duskwight in the Main Scenario PERIOD. There are also no important female Highlanders or Plainsfolk, at all, and the only recurring Plainsfolk male (Teledji) was an utter douchebag... well, OK, Wedge is a male Plainsfolk, but he's mostly fallen by the wayside and never was voiced, and the same could be said to be true of Rammbroes (I forget if we ever visited St. Coinach's Find during the Main Scenario).

Amandine was Duskwright. As is Miounne. And judging by their grey skin Shiva & Iceheart are/were both Duskwright.

I'd say Teledji is an important NPC even if he's pushing up weeds now. Wedge (but I don't recall him being confirmed one way or another) was voiced during the main scenario. We don't know what Lolorito is so we can't count him as anything. Also, you forgot Papalymo.

Maybe Pipin will do better.

He's a dunesfolk.

... so male miqo'te aren't the only ones who got the short end of the stick as far as Main Scenario representation goes.

I wouldn't count the Main Scenario as the be all and end all for representation though. Because as I said it's just not realistic for SE to be expected to have an NPC from every race/gender/clan in the main scenario and be a major NPC. If you look towards side quests; even if they be Hildibrand, the Job/Class quests, Event quests or Post Moogle they try to spread out the representation as much as possible.

Edit: Oh right, I can't believe you forgot Moenbryda! For shame! For shame!

[Fenral]

snip

I only ever meant to point out that, as far as simple race/gender representation in MS, "they can't represent everyone" only excludes male Miqo'te for the moment (and the "rarity" argument can only go so far for so long). If they manage to go all of Heavensward without a voiced male Miqo'te or male Au Ra, though, I suppose that will make it a list of two.

But this is a rather silly tangent, isn't it?

[Cilia]

Stuff!

I'm not the one unhappy with MS underrepresentin', and I'm sorry I don't remember the minutiae. Wasn't counting side stories either.

Didn't remember Biggs being voiced; have to comb over cutscenes now.

Did not forget Hoary Boulder but thus far he's just been unvoiced comic relief; did not see him being set up to be more serious later.

Didn't know Amandine was Duskwight; irrelevant now that she's a demon / dead, isn't voiced anyway. Have not seen definitive proof Mother Miounne is Duskwight; same for Iceheart, their pale skin tones are available to both clans. Mother Miounne isn't voiced anyway.

Did forget Papalymo. Apologies.

Did not forget Teledji, but was listing "under-represented" sex / race / clan combinations, and forgot about Papalymo.

Pipin is Plainsfolk; lacks the glassy, pupil-less iris of a Dunesfolk, and name fits Plainsfolk conventions.

Did not forget Moenbryda; considering her name fits Sea Wolf traditions she's probably of that clan, same as Merlwyb (was accounting the underrepresented female Hellsguard). She's the Moon Bride, yo!

[Grayve]

Y'sholta is also most likely Gridania born considering she's a conjurer and their are three other Y clan Miqo'te located in Gridania.

And her sister is in Gridania.

[Cilia]

That's usually where you start cursing destiny, right?

Here's the thing though; you can't really change the outcome of any event in the game. Just like people throwing hissy fits over how "control of their character's persona" was taken away (etc.) in the 2.5.5. ending, you don't really have the power to change the outcome of anything in the story. It progresses if you complete the required MSQs. Everything else is optional.

It's just like the Binding Coil: an optional side-story. Whether you complete the Coil and Crystal Tower or not, the story spins on either way. They're both side stories exploring the past; while we do need to learn from the past, creating the future is more important.

'sides, I started cursing destiny at the end of 2.5.5 anyway. I never asked for this.

Eureka! It's a real thing! Maybe. And what exactly about it makes it a "Forbidden Land," when we know the Allagans were already into some creepy stuff?

Well considering it was the location of the most powerful weapons in III (excepting the Legendary Smith ones) and it won't be released until 3.1 at the earliest, it's theorized Eureka might have something to do with the new Relic Weapon questline. The quest for said Relics isn't supposed to start until 3.1, so it kind of lines up? Either way, no way to know what they got down there assuming we get to go there.

[Fenral]

'sides, I started cursing destiny at the end of 2.5.5 anyway. I never asked for this.

The only real difference between our views is that I started a couple patches earlier. My objective was never to inspire G'raha pull a stupid stunt that he can never take back for a cause I could never believe in, but it happened. I never meant to discuss it in this thread, because that dead horsebird has already been beaten. It's done, it happened, but they left "something" open. That "something" is all I was trying to discuss here, free from any prejudices about "rules" unrelated to the story itself.

"Oh, well, it's optional," and "nothing said people with those marks are important NPCs" are both justifications people came up with after 2.5 revealed that G'raha was actually never going to be able to leave the tower, as a way to rationalize the rather disappointingly abrupt ending given to a promising new character. It's one thing going into a movie theater and sitting through an entire isolated story in one go (knowing from the start it's going to be a stand-alone thing), and quite another to see that movie split into three episodes bundled in with the main story, with deep involvement from characters from that main story, with nothing besides the ending itself to indicate it was never meant to impact other events, or even introduce one new character for a later appearance. There was nothing to indicate it would end like it did, until it did, and while you can argue that that's the "twist," for a lot of us it just felt like a cruel lie.

But we don't actually know where the lie lies, yet, and a lot of unbreakable side-story-related "rules" were mercilessly slaughtered in 2.55, so can we please stop talking about it?



EDIT: Ick, that makes me sound like one of those fans. I'm not, I swear (mostly). Better way I can put it: if someone is going to remove themselves from the flow of time itself, especially at the end of a major storyline, I want to be allowed to feel it properly, and to know that that loss has had a defined impact on the world (especially if we will, in fact, never meet again). Instead, we went through the entire mourning process with him still on screen, and nothing (at present) indicates it is a loss that will be felt by anyone besides me and poor, stationary Rambroes, and even then only if you ask directly. I'm even sadder for Doga and especially Unei, because, since it potentially won't have happened for some players, Nero could easily never mention her again after his inevitable return. It's wishy-washy, when you get right down to it. But they wanted to leave us expecting more, so we'll see what actually happens.

[Cilia]

Well no worries; I suppose it is kind of my fault for bringing up mechanics when that wasn't the subject.

That said, I'm not trying to be mean but assuming G'raha would be important in the Main Scenario was jumping to a conclusion. Think of it this way... in the Iron Man movies (and greater MCU), you'd expect War Machine to have a greater role than he does, being equipped in a similar fashion to the titular hero. That said, we all know how Rhodey's been treated in the MCU: he didn't appear in The Avengers, had a very downplayed role in Iron Man III, and without spoiling much while he does show up in Age of Ultron and gets to do some stuff... he's the butt of a lot of jokes. The point is that, regrettably, our favorite characters don't always get to take center stage.

It is totally possible G'raha will show up in the Main Scenario. Considering how 2.5.5 breaks a lot of the rules in regards to optional characters showing up in the Main Scenario and vice versa (the acting ACN Guildmaster who speaks to Tataru and trusts you with her exam if you're an accomplished ACN, Estinien showing up and treating you like an old buddy if you've finished the DRG quests, and the infamous CUL Zombie Nanamo paradox) it's not impossible. Estinien even seems like he'll be a major character in 3.0. Anything's possible... how probable it is, on the other hand, nobody can say. With Eureka maybe coming into the picture chances might go up... but then again, they might not. If (when) Nero shows back up he could just use a few different / extra lines of dialogue, a la Estinien, if you've cleared the World of Darkness.

The Crystal Tower ending was a bit abrupt, but I kind of saw it coming. As side content they had to wrap it up, and that was one of the few ways I saw it ending especially after G'raha's "Now I know my purpose" line. Storytelling in 2.5.x was all kind of... off, a little... but even if nobody ever mentions G'raha, Doga, or Unei again, never forget their sacrifices.

To answer the original question:

Tl;dr: It was possible to send a message about hope, in very similar circumstances, without ending it they way they did, so with the presence of Eureka teased by that certain cutscene, is there some deeper reason that they didn't?

Maybe. Considering how power-hungry the Garleans are and how willing the Monetarists are to seize power regardless of the cost, I'd say G'raha sealing it was rather justified... but that's just me.

No way no how we should live like the Allagans. They were incredibly cruel, and their tech bred stagnation. I think Cid knows this but it's not what you have, it's how you use it that's important. Kind of why he opposes Garlemald, since their "way" is essentially recreating Allag.

I... really can't comment on Eureka. It has no plotline significance and no backstory in III, so as far as content or it's importance to the lore of the XIV's world is concerned anything goes if it's added.

[Belhi]

Yshtola's sister isn't from Gridania. Her dialog says she came to Eorzea partly due to her sisters stories of the place. Id say her and Yshtola are Shalayan.

[Fenral]

Considering how power-hungry the Garleans are and how willing the Monetarists are to seize power regardless of the cost, I'd say G'raha sealing it was rather justified... but that's just me.

Sealing it? Yes. Sealing himself inside? Not convinced that was for the best. Nothing stopping the Garleans, or worse, from opening it themselves later, and we won't always be around to protect it. "Faith in humanity" (yeah, that) is all we have to say it won't be misused (or just overused) 1000 years from now, anyway. Unless it can actually be used to save the world from imminent peril in our near future, we don't need it. Naturally I had no way of saying that at the time, but still.

The point is that, regrettably, our favorite characters don't always get to take center stage.

But New Avengers. Come on. With the MCU, at least, you generally know the less prominent characters have good things on the way. Generally. But yeah, Age of Ultron... I'm so used to that kind of disappointment by now I didn't even feel it when it happened. Part of being me. Noting the quote your sig, you'll understand if I say Leon was my first-impression favorite, too. Sigh.

I know we aren't supposed to expect our favorites to take center stage, but my two favorites were G'raha and Moenbryda, in that order, and I did WoD and the 2.5 MS, in that order, on patch day. It's one thing watching your favorites go, it's entirely another for them to be the first ones sacrificed for the genre shift, because you have no way of knowing they'll commit until it happens. But it did.

It's especially bad for me with G'raha, because while he'd been waving the tragic destiny flag like a fiend since 2.3, my innate assumption (thanks, Final Fantasy) was that he would have some sort of internal conflict when it happened, even if we might not get to save him until later. Die his hair blond and his vest blue and he even turns into Zidane, so really? Just gonna take it like that? But nope, not tragic (apparently), and no internal conflict needed, even considering what he "remembered" wasn't actually something he had ever "forgotten." Okay, cool. Thanks for the friendly reminder that we actually have no way of predicting anything your characters will do, FFXIV.

It is totally possible G'raha will show up in the Main Scenario.

I honestly never meant to say that be would, just that it wasn't entirely impossible (much more so had he not done that, though, but who knows). If he does come back, he'll probably die. The entire thing is so incredibly Doctor Who that I can't see him coming back except to die for real, or meet some even worse fate. Far too soon to say if he will or won't, and I'm still ambivalent on the whole thing, honestly. For all we know, though, the Eureka story (if it even has one) will just be about protecting Sleeping Beauty, and he may only appear at the end to thank us and replay the message from the end of the CT story before going away for good.

He did leave a lot of potentially important questions unanswered (so, also potentially irrelevant) when he left, though, and the writers can't very well introduce another Royal Allagan after Doga and Unei searched the world for them for 5 years. The whole thing feels like a loaded gun left onstage just to sit around for a while. Doesn't ever have to get fired, but it is there.

"Accept it and move on," has been played a whole lot these days, and we're all already sure we're just going to be a different sort of passive in Heavensward. Obviously I'm still playing, but I'm hoping that at least some of that passive will involve intervening in destiny. G'raha's, too? Hopefully, some day, but I'll be happy if I can at least save Yda. Given my track record, though...

[Cilia]

Sealing it? Yes. Sealing himself inside? Not convinced that was for the best.

It's not explicitly stated, but implicitly it's only possible to seal the tower from the inside. Either that or G'raha's magical Allagan blood told him to do it cuz it was his fate or whatever... and, well, people don't seem keen on questioning or rejecting fate in XIV.

Astral and Umbral turn ever on, heedless of the wishes or efforts of mortals. Light will fade to Dark, and Dark be burned away by Light. We can do naught but accept this and play our part in turning the wheel of fate.

Only... Is this our only choice?

It's one thing watching your favorites go, it's entirely another for them to be the first ones sacrificed for the genre shift, because you have no way of knowing they'll commit until it happens.

Thanks for the friendly reminder that we actually have no way of predicting anything your characters will do, FFXIV.

Personal favorite characters aside, it does kind of suck when they kill off or otherwise get rid of popular characters to advance the story. I assume that's the point of killing them off, though - it shows that even though they're popular anyone can die. Poorly written and handled? Kinda maybe.

Having the characters act in unpredictable ways is actually kind of nice. It shows they aren't totally logical or cliché; they decide things for themselves and act independently, just like real people would. If you could predict every event and intervene to change the one whose outcomes you don't like it'd just be another power fantasy, and being unable to get a "perfect outcome" where everything you want happens or is true just isn't going to happen when you have a large number of players on the stage. I much prefer stories where getting the perfect ending full of sugar and rainbows isn't possible; less idealistic, maybe, but more realistic.

... The whole thing feels like a loaded gun left onstage just to sit around for a while. Doesn't ever have to get fired, but it is there.

"Accept it and move on," has been played a whole lot these days, and we're all already sure we're just going to be a different sort of passive in Heavensward. Obviously I'm still playing, but I'm hoping that at least some of that passive will involve intervening in destiny. G'raha's, too? Hopefully, some day, but I'll be happy if I can at least save Yda. Given my track record, though...

I think the point of teasing Eureka was to leave it open-ended; that way if the storyline was popular enough and/or there was enough demand they could revisit it, if not they could drop it without upsetting too many people. Some people are always going to be upset, but that's the nature of the world... you can't please everyone.

Passivity? Big time, and in light of 2.5.5's rather depressing ending it's pissing me off. Can we intervene in the flow of fate and create our own future? I sincerely hope so, because by the look of things we're just going to perpetuate the fated Astral and Umbral cycle.

As an aside, I'm +99.9% sure none of the Scions actually bit the big one. They're too popular and integral to the story. How they survived, and why nobody could find them... look for the answers in 3.x.