SMN target swap - how many GCDs to break even?

[pandabearcat]

Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

Yep, but generally you have a good idea of how fast things are dropping.

You start casting Bio II or Miasma and by the time you finish, its already at 75% hp? Drop the second dot, immediately bio then Ruin II
You finish 1 dot and its close to 50%? Ruin + Ruin II.

Since generally melee combo is strongest on last hit, if you have a good sense (based on animation, the last hit has a huge flashy animation, or if you play those classes, you'll know) you can also tell when a mob is going to spike down.

The actual dps difference is marginal - without a doubt if an add is blowing up we're going to suck hard on it, but if you want to optimize you could.

And yea I realized I was confused on Miasma and Bio II, just swap the two in my OP.

[Judge_Xero]

You gave a bad example. The WoD hourglasses on average will last over 9 seconds which is when Bio 2 begins to go + over a single ruin....

To an extent even if you don't have Fester and something is kinda meaty and needs to die fast, IE: T8 Dreadnaught

Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

I think they were referring to the Hourglasses as, since there are 4, which are all separate, it would require 8 GCD in order to dot them all with B+M before having to return to the first one to dot again. B + M are your highest potency/s compared to Bio 2 so I guess it makes sense that you would only rotate those two over 4 separate adds. (changes in a good WoD party where you wouldn't have the option to return to the last one, since it's dead so I see where you are coming from in that regard)

T8 is my favorite example of a SMN trying to be bursty and losing a ton of resources, by Baning/Fester. Where as even Doting it up when it spawns (Facetarget) and Ruin is pretty efficient, and saves 2 Aetherflow for the boss, or 2 for the Dread if your party dps is slow.

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Every different pug I join for random FCOB farming I have to change my rotation. As annoying as it seems, it's probably my favorite part of SMN, with how versatile it is in so many different situations.

[Whiston]

You gave a bad example.


Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

No, I gave a great example.
The hourglasses do last over 9 seconds and that's why multiple miasma/bio rotation works. The 9 seconds as indicated by Xero's graph (Amazing BTW, that really clarifies a lot!) is for single target where you have absolutely nothing better to do after you've set up your dots. In the situation of the hourglasses this is NOT the case, because you have three other hourglasses to dot up. If you put three dots on each hourglass, bio would be falling off the first one by the time you hit bio on just the third one. The idea there is you constantly rotate your most potent skills and drop the least potent one from the rotation. By the time you've finished miasma/bio on the last hourglass and return to the first, bio will be just falling off, so there is a moment where you had a single tick of 8 dots for 300 potency, and since you then refresh that rotation a further time, you maintain 300 potency worth of ticks until one of the three dies.

But yes, undoubtedly SMN is the class that really is affected by the rest of the party.
Honestly in most situations where an add exists for a brief amount of time (Bennu's for instance), it's not really worth a summoners time unless the main target is already dotted and, again, you really have nothing better to do but throw out a few ruins.

[pandabearcat]

Er, DPCT is as follows:

Bio II: 350 dpct, 11.7 dps
Miasma: 300 dpct, 12.5 dps
Bio: 240 dpct , 13.3 dps

If a thingy lasts more than 27 sec Bio II will outdpct Miasma...so if you're tabbing between 4 targets which last 30 seconds or more, Bio II is worthwhile to cast first.

Otherwise...yes drop it. Our dots are very easy to figure out, longer duration is more dpct, shorter duration is more dps.

[Havenchild]

I think they were referring to the Hourglasses as, since there are 4, which are all separate, it would require 8 GCD in order to dot them all with B+M before having to return to the first one to dot again. B + M are your highest potency/s compared to Bio 2 so I guess it makes sense that you would only rotate those two over 4 separate adds. (changes in a good WoD party where you wouldn't have the option to return to the last one, since it's dead so I see where you are coming from in that regard)


T8 is my favorite example of a SMN trying to be bursty and losing a ton of resources, by Baning/Fester. Where as even Doting it up when it spawns (Facetarget) and Ruin is pretty efficient, and saves 2 Aetherflow for the boss, or 2 for the Dread if your party dps is slow.

-----------------------------------------------------

Every different pug I join for random FCOB farming I have to change my rotation. As annoying as it seems, it's probably my favorite part of SMN, with how versatile it is in so many different situations.

No, I gave a great example.
The hourglasses do last over 9 seconds and that's why multiple miasma/bio rotation works. The 9 seconds as indicated by Xero's graph (Amazing BTW, that really clarifies a lot!) is for single target where you have absolutely nothing better to do after you've set up your dots. In the situation of the hourglasses this is NOT the case, because you have three other hourglasses to dot up. If you put three dots on each hourglass, bio would be falling off the first one by the time you hit bio on just the third one. The idea there is you constantly rotate your most potent skills and drop the least potent one from the rotation. By the time you've finished miasma/bio on the last hourglass and return to the first, bio will be just falling off, so there is a moment where you had a single tick of 8 dots for 300 potency, and since you then refresh that rotation a further time, you maintain 300 potency worth of ticks until one of the three dies.

I feel like I better understood what you were trying to say after reading this tidbit. In a good party where the first add will die in 8 GCDs, the M / B setup is likely better.

However wouldn't this change if they are alive past 8 GCDs as well?
For example if you only dotted the 3 hourglasses not focused by the horde with all 3 DoTs (9 GCDs), you would be doing 330 potency universally in one tick by the time the final bio lands on the third add.

The first Bio would be at about 2 seconds or so. From here on you could technically ignore Bio II falling off on the first add (about 10 seconds or so left here, because your assuming it will die in those 10 seconds) and just refresh Miasma and Bio on the hourglasses, and overall that would give you more potency universally no? For about an additional 10 seconds or (3 to 4 server ticks depending on where you land on the server timer) you are doing 330 potency. Unless my math is completely wrong here.

Yep, but generally you have a good idea of how fast things are dropping.

You start casting Bio II or Miasma and by the time you finish, its already at 75% hp? Drop the second dot, immediately bio then Ruin II
You finish 1 dot and its close to 50%? Ruin + Ruin II.

This is more or less the way I make those calls as well. Although assuming we keep the same DPS as well, in repeat attempts yes, it would be Miasma over Bio II for that little bit of potency.

[Whiston]

Yeah, I think I would concede that getting maximum uptime on three adds would be more beneficial than contributing to a first add being taken care of by others. Especially in the event that there is minimal time constraints on the adds. Especially if there she less than four targets, in such a case that you can setup the less efficient bio II without having the more potent bio drop off.

[Judge_Xero]

Yeah..

Probably what you would see in that instance is.

1st Hourglass - B2MB (greater than 12s) MB (less than 12s)
2nd Hourglass - MB (if you only cast MB on the 1st add then B2MB on this one)
3rd Hourglass - MB
4th Hourglass - MB
Ahriman - B2MB
2nd Hourglass - B
3rd Hourglass - MB
4th Hourglass - MB

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Maximum uptime doesn't matter so much compared to "Is this spell going to do more than 80 Potency" So at the very least you will want to throw Bio on something, since being Instant cast has a very high chance of doing 2 ticks in less than 6 seconds.

But overall I think you make a very good point about only rotating MB over that many spread out adds, and is not something I think a lot of SMN considered. Or even the fact that you can rate your Dots as their Potency/s for those instances. (Potency/s > Dot duration)
Even considering that you could fit a couple Ruins in because the combination of Bio2 and Miasma tick longer, you are still further ahead using B+M