Whm / Scholar - who is better

[DarkmoonVael]

The general consensus in the game so far is white mages are way behind scholars in the power curve and usefulness. Considering having asked over 50 white mages on my server alone and 36 of them admit they go scholar for dungeons and feel that the scholar is more powerful then the white mage it is no wonder some people are worried Astrologian will become their new main in 3.0. White mage has only raw healing as its sticking point. Scholars have superior dps, mitigation cooldowns and stronger heals then white mage and were able to solo heal all content faster and in weaker gear then white mages.

SE will have no choice but to give white mage's stronger utility spells and dps when Astrologian numbers shoot up while white mages drop the same %. The only reason people seem to be confused at how weak the white mage truly is right now is because as other people have said it is a stronger combination to have white mage/scholar then double scholar with Galvanize shield not stacking with other scholar shields. If the were to ever get rid of that you would see 90% of all high end raids use scholars then.

Future isnt looking good for the gimp white mage ;(. Please buff them SE.

After an entire thread that you created over this where the only thing that happened was your opinion was debunked by the masses, I would have thought that you would get the point that you do not speak for the masses at all. This is not the general consensus.

People who can not use WHM to save their lives (or anyone elses) are the ones with this opinion.

And stop it with the sch shield stacking thing, they dont stack, therefore the entire argument about it is non existant. If whm could use stoneskin 2 in combat it would kill off the sch. That is how absurd your arguments are getting now.

[VanilleFang]

And stop it with the sch shield stacking thing, they dont stack, therefore the entire argument about it is non existant. If whm could use stoneskin 2 in combat it would kill off the sch. That is how absurd your arguments are getting now.

: I can't even understand how someone can think this is a thing. Its easy to test and obvious that Galvanize of different SCHs don't stack. I mean its obvious when you use Galvanize on a target who already has another SCH's Galvanize already on them, and your's either has no effect or replaces the other SCH's. A perfect example of this is when your group has two SCHs and you both use Succor. How any one even thinks they stack just shows how little many players actually pay attention to what is going on. Its sad really.

[Ghishlain]

: I can't even understand how someone can think this is a thing. Its easy to test and obvious that Galvanize of different SCHs don't stack. I mean its obvious when you use Galvanize on a target who already has another SCH's Galvanize already on them, and your's either has no effect or replaces the other SCH's. A perfect example of this is when your group has two SCHs and you both use Succor. How any one even thinks they stack just shows how little many players actually pay attention to what is going on. Its sad really.

You're actually misinterpreting Vlady's position. He's stating that the only reason no raid brings double SCH is because SCH shields don't stack. By this logic and because SCHs are so "overpowered", if SCH shields COULD stack no one would bring a WHM to any relevant content.

[VanilleFang]

You're actually misinterpreting Vlady's position. He's stating that the only reason no raid brings double SCH is because SCH shields don't stack. By this logic and because SCHs are so "overpowered", if SCH shields COULD stack no one would bring a WHM to any relevant content.

I missed the "not" in his sentence. lol

Thanks.

[Mutemutt]

You're actually misinterpreting Vlady's position. He's stating that the only reason no raid brings double SCH is because SCH shields don't stack. By this logic and because SCHs are so "overpowered", if SCH shields COULD stack no one would bring a WHM to any relevant content.

And this right here is pretty much my thoughts as well. Whm isn't terrible or anything, but I do think sch just generally brings much more to the group overall. Sch's main drawback is that they step all over each other's toes; you essentially get 1.5 schs when you bring 2. So instead you bring along a whm, the only other option. Once astrologian is out, healers will actually have to compete for a spot and I think, as things stand right now, sch is in a much stronger position.

Of course both sch and whm will be getting new skills, so we'll see how things turn out in the future.

And yes, before anyone asks ( or just goes to check), I have beat t13 and all the other content as whm and whm is still the healer I prefer to play, though not because I think it's better overall, just because I like the play style more.

[Ghishlain]

And this right here is pretty much my thoughts as well. Whm isn't terrible or anything, but I do think sch just generally brings much more to the group overall. Sch's main drawback is that they step all over each other's toes; you essentially get 1.5 schs when you bring 2. So instead you bring along a whm, the only other option. Once astrologian is out, healers will actually have to compete for a spot and I think, as things stand right now, sch is in a much stronger position.

Of course both sch and whm will be getting new skills, so we'll see how things turn out in the future.

And yes, before anyone asks ( or just goes to check), I have beat t13 and all the other content as whm and whm is still the healer I prefer to play, though not because I think it's better overall, just because I like the play style more.

I'm not trying to troll, and honestly genuinely curious if you can quantify why SCH >>>>>>> WHM. I like the SCH toolkit better but to me the difference is SCH > WHM, not SCH >>>>>>> WHM that a some players indicate. I can understand the sentiment about WHMs being left in the third tier slot when AST is released, but until we see what the new toolkits look like, we should probably reserve any doom and gloom until it happens (as you have rightfully mentioned in your post).

As it stands right now, everyone I've seen who's spoken towards the "OMG SCH IS SO OP DEBATE!" hasn't been able to truly quantify the "WHY" of this. It's been a smattering of opinions without too much actual meat to the what I see as just a skeleton of an opinion. At one point I rather messily refuted everything SCH brings to the table in Coil in another random post (can link if interested). Many of my healer friends I've discussed this about also prefer SCH but don't find the divide to be so great to cause them to worry about the toolkit of a WHM at this juncture and many posters on this forum look at comments made by like Vlady and think all he's doing is sticking his hands over his ears and shouting at the top of his lungs to be heard. I think a comment chain at one point by Velox described it better, but would nice to see some actual substance and math on the table.

As it currently stands, I can see all of coil being completed with both SCH / SCH and WHM / WHM without issue - just requires a slightly different group composition and strategy. But for any bleeding edge group World-first group, even with stacking shields, I'm pretty certain they would chose WHM / SCH for the utilities both jobs provided so they can cover all the bases.

[Mutemutt]

*snip*

I don't really think whm has that much utility, to be honest, and that, given that sch shields could stack, I'd rather have twice as much of the sch utility as it's just better overall.

I mean the main things whm brings are protect, holy, cure 3, stoneskin and maybe medica 2 though 2 eos could cover that aoe HoT front pretty well. Holy's usefulness is limited by it's steep mp cost so you pretty much only use it for trash pulls. Stoneskin is only useful in 2 situations: 1) the attack that needs this mitigation would kill the target from full health or near full health. If that's not the case, a cure 2 timed to land after the hit pays off more and costs less. 2) buffing the party before the pull even happens. But it's worth noting that a stacked adlos would amount to more than the 18% stoneskins, even on the tanks (this is ignoring any crit adlos, and buffs like thrill of battle and convalescence, but still considering defiance).

On the other hand, sch has the better eye for an eye, the better virus (though an extra virus of any kind is only especially useful on adds, with supervirus only making a difference on the adds that actually have magic based attacks, but they have popped up in t10 and t11). Fairy out does regen when it can focus most of the heals on the one target, having more potency and a lower mp cost (making the fairy more mp efficient than whm's most efficient single target heal, funnily enough) which is how most of these fights work with the main tank tanking the brunt of the attacks. I'd say regen is only better in the case where you maintain it on 2 targets, which happens often enough in our current content, but being able to have 1 fairy dedicated to each of the tanks would out do even that. And, finally, sch's just have better single target dps, with the majority of these endgame fights being spent dpsing a single target. Also funnily enough, party dps seems to be a the one thing these world first groups are always trying to push out more of, the apparent limiting factor.

It's hard to actually give a concrete number to just how much better I think the sch is, but I can say, with very little doubt, that if shields could stack, sch/sch would be the best 2 healer combination.

So, given that astrologian is being designed to operate in place of either the sch or the whm as well as having a few buffs as their own, and if no changes to whm and sch were made... I'd say there would be a pretty high chance that sch/ast would be the best combo. Which is all just to say that, right now, whm is taken by default and not necessarily by it's own merit as a healer.

[Ghishlain]

* Snips *

Thanks for the input. The one thing I tend to stress a lot when making predictions of the future meta and analysis of the current meta is the fights and the mechanics they bring to the table, and I can elaborate some more on this with specific examples as I go. This post in particular will be about the utility both healers bring to the current meta and designed more as an information piece then a debate piece so players can make their own judgement on the whole debate.

Just to speak on the utility aspect and looking at individual abilities on a case-by-case basis in a vacuum:

Supervirus (SCH) vs Virus (WHM)
When looking at the two side by side, it's pretty clear Supervirus wins the matchup hands down. However, when you consider it with respect to all of FCoB tank busters (one of the prime attacks a healer may want to Virus), you will find an large amount of them are Physical in nature

-Critical Rip (Physical)
-Secondary Head (Physical)
-Revelation (Physical)
-Flatten (Physical)
-Ahk Morn (Magical)

This evens the playing field dramatically in the context of tank busters and gives WHM a bit more credit for their Virus. With that being said, all of the arena wide damage attacks are magical in nature. To name a few

-Electroshock (Magical)
-Nerve Cloud (Magical)
-Flames of Rebirth (Magical)
-Gigaflare (Magical)

Picking which ones to mitigate is generally up to groups themselves, though I think more groups opt to handle Tank Busters over raid wide damage abilities (notable exceptions being auto-critical Nerve Cloud and Gigaflare).

Winner - SCH, but not quite so much as I think some people would like to believe.


Eye for an Eye (SCH) vs Eye for an Eye (WHM)
No contest

Winner - SCH


Proshell vs Fey Covenant
Depends on the fight. Proshell favours fights like T10 and T12 where the party is being manhandled with attacks such as Heat Lightning, Cyclonic Torrent, Flames of Rebirth, Phoenix Pinions, and Fountain of Fire on a regular basis. Fey Convenant is great when handling specific heavy spikes at not-so regular intervals like Nerve Clouds and Gigaflare. I'd give Proshell the pass though as it's basically out on a permanent basis in any fight and thus will "always be doing something"

Winner - WHM, by a slight margin


Divine Seal vs Fey Illumination
Divine Seal is on a one minute cooldown versus Fey Illumination's two. This means WHM will have overall higher up time on their healing booster versus a SCH. Additionally, WHM can psuedo extend the buff by using HoTs such as Medica II / Regen before Divine Seal expires, due to the snapshot nature of the game.

Winner - WHM


Pressence of Mind vs Fey Glow
From a spell speed perspective, Fey Glow wins hands down due to the amount of times it can be used and the party wide benefits it can provide (mostly to BLM). One could make the argument PoM serves a completely different niche compared to Fey Glow as PoM would be used specifically by the WHM to increase their own DPS/HPS whereas Fey Glow is there to benefit the party with additional Spell Speed and thus higher DPS on specific class/jobs.

Winner - SCH

Fey Light
Um, nothing to compare to, maybe WHM will get something similar come Heavensward

Winner - SCH


Overall Winner - SCH

Note that, as mentioned in the opening, these abilities were analyzed in a vacuum. In cases of Proshell vs Fey Covenant, you kinda want both when mitigating any seriously powerful magical hit. Likewise, because a WHM also gains the benefits of Fey Illumination, they can be make us of this additional heal in the same way they would make use of Divine Seal (or even stack Divine Seal for incredible healing potency). The utility pieces themselves are very synergistic in nature. Overall, both healers bring something to the table that is beneficial in a form, and the divide isn't as great as I feel people make it out to be (namely in the case of Virus).

Something to consider for the future meta, Spell Speed is rumoured to increase the potency of DoTs (and by extension, possibly HoTs) as per one particular interview. If that's the case, Pressence of Mind became somewhat medicore in the WHM toolkit to "OMG THE POWER OF HoTS!!!!" when popped. Especially if Divine Seal is available as well.

The more I think about it, the more I hope S-E consider the position WHMs are in compared to SCH and hope they add the appropriate buffs as needed when Heavensward comes out. Given, on my drive home from work, I've pretty much saw how T13 can be done SCH/SCH (even without stacking shields) and how in my head it'd be so much more effective versus SCH/WHM, I'm like "Wow, this is nuts". lol. <<<< will most likely get a lot of flak for this comment.

I can elaborate a bit more on the T13 comment, but need some time to put it together in a decent presentation, I think.