Healers forever gimped

[Spoekes]

A slight MP disadvantage in regards to SCH is something other than and does not imply "MP issues".

In actual practice, I've found zero to refute my friend's insistence that PIE is worth investing in on WHM and have had zero trouble with healing on WHM. And if you only have 200hp that needs healing, you're going to be getting a regen from me anyhow.

Also, if a WHM isn't good at their job, they probably either need to study up or change to another class, regardless of where their points are placed.

I must say tho, I would never recommend that someone leveling WHM to 50, put all their points in PIE, definitely not. Mind definitely is preferred when leveling WHM.

You don't have to put extra points from MND over to PIE to not go oom, and combining that proposal with "If your good at your job" doesn't make it look better.. or healing 200 damage with a regen for that matter.. but this may be the reason why 30 points in PIE might be good for you.

[TetsuyaHikari]

I'm already expecting the DRK hate to come back, so I'm prepared, lol.

[Yare]

Ladies and gentlemen, behold the guide on how to gimp a WHM by Whitemage Bashing Association (WBA):
1. Cure 3, presence of mind, regen and free cure 2 are myth and do not exist. Extend the cool down of divine seal from 1 to 2 minutes and medical II from 0 to 1 minute. Shrunk the radius of medica II to same as whispering down.

2. WHM always team with suicidal dps (preferably a DRG), ineffective dps and a tank who does not use CDs so the fight is long and mana consuming to heal and raise.

3. NO speed runs in 4-man dungeons. Only turtle runs so WHM runs out of mana.

4. All encounters must have an isolated spiky outlandish gigantic tank wacking or party slamming damages that can be mitigated by SCH but not healable by WHM. Nerf aoe damages that require immediate top off.

5. WHM are not allowed to do new unknown difficult encounters with unexpected huge aoe damages. WHM must do old farmable content in a team of low dps.

[desufin]

A year and a half later and tons of piety granted to both WHM and SCH on our i120 & i130 gear and people still complain about MP issues for WHM. MP issues for cutting edge content hasn't felt imposing or like an actual issue ever since we moved past i90 gear and better position checks by the servers.

A WHM back in The Binding Coil of Bahamut in i70-90 did struggle a bit with MP, true, but that is what got us Shroud cd reduced from 3min to 2min. But now? The only MP issues any healer should be struggling with is in progress where people are taking damage they if they weren't progressing, shouldn't take. It's pretty much part of the design. Also a SCH under healing pressure crumbles far far faster than a WHM under healing pressure, even if they have the same MP pool.

I'm always a WHM at heart but for all of FCoB I've pretty much gone as SCH and WHM for everything else (ex primals, expert, 24man etc) and anyone that says one is better than the other or have mp issues over the other is quite frankly talking out their ass at this point. This point might be relevant and an issue at 60 when the gear treadmill starts anew but for now and for quite some time it is a completely non-existent problem.

[Jim_Berry]

I started as CNJ, and now still play WHM. I personally do fine with how simple it is. Perhaps WHM is Easy Mode and SCH is Expert Mode.

Either way, the community runs WHMs away or suggest the player do SCH. THEN, you get groups needing a WHM because previous player is now a SCH or DPS.

In any case, I'm a Regen spammer and a Divine Seal spammer, so my stronger heals nulls my MP loss.

[KisaiTenshi]

I'm going to reply to the thread but honestly I don't care about the nitpicky details.

Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP, the difference is that punching Shroud of Saints requires you to wait to recover enough MP to use it, which means you can't use it once you're out, and thus it's best used before you hit 20%. Aetherflow on the other hand is essentially free, instant 20% MP recovery. You get to pull some additional MP/HP from enemies (If you use all 3 Aetherflows, you recover a little over the same 20% the initial Aetherflow did.) Obviously PIE would factor in more with SCH (since it's 20%) but not WHM's Shroud of Saints (which just increases the MP regeneration tick speed.)

Regardless of which you play, you're going to run out of mana if either you overheal, or the party (or just the tank) is playing horribly. Speedrunners, Tanks/DPS who stand in every AOE , and fail to interrupt/stun the raid-wide attacks are going to be what causes you to run out of mana.

There are also pots, remember those? Hi-Elixir has a 7-minute 30 second cooldown, and recovers a maximum of 460 points/20% of MP (and 24%/560 points of HP.) X-Ether is 460 points/20% of MP. Exactly the same 20%.

The fact is, the game's battles are designed around playing cooperatively and playing the role you queued as. You aren't supposed to need to revive/resurrect players if everyone is paying attention. Revives are the most expensive use of MP, Revive = 6 Cure I's. They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20% (eg you could waste 20% of your Mana and still win, that's why Shroud/Aetherflow/Elixir/Ether are at that and have long enough cooldowns to avoid spamming them.) But hey, some people still seem to think that healers are supposed to take up the slack of every player who is playing poorly on purpose.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip.

If there's anything misleading it would be this post: numbers aren't even right

[Menae]

I'm going to reply to the thread but honestly I don't care about the nitpicky details.

Aetherflow and Shroud of Saints recover roughly the same amount of MP, the difference is that punching Shroud of Saints requires you to wait to recover enough MP to use it, which means you can't use it once you're out, and thus it's best used before you hit 20%. Aetherflow on the other hand is essentially free, instant 20% MP recovery. You get to pull some additional MP/HP from enemies (If you use all 3 Aetherflows, you recover a little over the same 20% the initial Aetherflow did.) Obviously PIE would factor in more with SCH (since it's 20%) but not WHM's Shroud of Saints (which just increases the MP regeneration tick speed.)

Regardless of which you play, you're going to run out of mana if either you overheal, or the party (or just the tank) is playing horribly. Speedrunners, Tanks/DPS who stand in every AOE , and fail to interrupt/stun the raid-wide attacks are going to be what causes you to run out of mana.

There are also pots, remember those? Hi-Elixir has a 7-minute 30 second cooldown, and recovers a maximum of 460 points/20% of MP (and 24%/560 points of HP.) X-Ether is 460 points/20% of MP. Exactly the same 20%.

The fact is, the game's battles are designed around playing cooperatively and playing the role you queued as. You aren't supposed to need to revive/resurrect players if everyone is paying attention. Revives are the most expensive use of MP, Revive = 6 Cure I's. They wouldn't make the game impossible, and clearly the margin of error is 20% (eg you could waste 20% of your Mana and still win, that's why Shroud/Aetherflow/Elixir/Ether are at that and have long enough cooldowns to avoid spamming them.) But hey, some people still seem to think that healers are supposed to take up the slack of every player who is playing poorly on purpose.

If there's anything misleading it would be this post: numbers aren't even right

What are you talking about, Lyrica? Those numbers are perfectly accurate! For a Scholar with 2500 MP! NOT MISLEADING AT ALL NOSIRREE BOB.

I mean, Kisai, I know you don't care about the nitpicky details, but at least come CLOSE to the mark. At the MP levels most people are running 8 mans with, Aetherflow restores at least 800 MP. Shroud restores 1060, but has double the cooldown.

Also, pots are capped at the lower of the two numbers. This means that Hi-Elixirs (NQ 20%/460 HQ 25%/580 for MP) don't give a 5k MP WHM or SCH 1k mana. They give 460 for NQ or 580 for HQ. X-Ethers are 20%/420 for NQ and 25%/530 for HQ. They also have a much lower CD - NQ is 5 minutes, HQ is 4:30.

If you ARE looking at pots to sustain your MP pool, X-Ethers are more efficient, particularly HQ ones. Using 3 in a fight (the most you can likely get off as I believe all bosses enrage before 13:30, the earliest you could conceivably use a 4th) gives you up to 1590 MP. That's less than two Aetherflows or about a Shroud and a half, but you likely aren't using your potion cooldown for anything else. I highly recommend players consider using mp pots on progression - when you are most likely to be spending MP like you just won the Cactpot - but it's certainly not 20% of an MP pool every 5 minutes.

(If you are DPSing significantly in a fight and not worried about MP or Gil, then consider using Mind pots, ESPECIALLY as a Scholar if you can get a good Bane off, or as a WHM if you can get lots of Holies off and have lots of accuracy and don't care about flushing your MP down the toilet. I don't personally recommend them for healing though)

[KisaiTenshi]

What are you talking about, Lyrica? Those numbers are perfectly accurate! For a Scholar with 2500 MP! NOT MISLEADING AT ALL NOSIRREE BOB.

I mean, Kisai, I know you don't care about the nitpicky details, but at least come CLOSE to the mark. At the MP levels most people are running 8 mans with, Aetherflow restores at least 800 MP. Shroud restores 1060, but has double the cooldown.

I don't have my SCH at 50 yet, and don't have a matching relic weapon to get more precise numbers. When I wrote that, the Aetherflow gave exactly 600MP from 3003MP total and the Energy drains's gave something like 216MP, and gave the same numbers regardless of cleric stance.

Here's what I have currently on 3113MP:

So that recovered 1306, 622+228+228+228. That's 42% of your MP you can recover in less than 10 seconds. 3 seconds per recast on the Energy drain, 60 seconds on the Aetherflow.

Now If I switch to WHM (4353MP):

After trying to make MP hit zero by spamming Holy and Aero. 1584mp after Shroud of Saints finished ticking, So roughly 105MP/sec since Shroud only lasts for 15 seconds. That's 36%. Since it has a 120 second Cooldown, a SCH would have recovered 84% of their MP without even counting the natural regeneration rate in the same time it would take the WHM to recover 72%. But also nobody stands around for 1-2 minutes just waiting for MP to regenerate unless they were recently revived.

As stated It's not an apples and oranges comparison.

The pots say right on them how long their cooldowns are, so you're never going to get to use any of them more than once in that two minute window. And nowhere did I state it was going to give a minimum 20% of the caster's MP, I stated that the 460 points (from the Hi-Elixir),and has a same 20% maximum that the Aetherflow quotes. Hence the game's designed around having a 20% margin of error since you should be able to do all the non-raid bosses without using pots.

Given one's play style, WHM is meant for reactive healing, while SCH is meant for anticipation of incoming damage by placing shields before damage hits (thus having to heal less.) The average player is not that good. If they are wasting more than 20% of their MP on one job they should try the other, and if they still can't figure out how not to waste MP, then they should probably not play a caster class to begin with.

[Ghishlain]

I guess I'll put my 2 gil in right now.

I don't have my SCH at 50 yet, and don't have a matching relic weapon to get more precise numbers. When I wrote that, the Aetherflow gave exactly 600MP from 3003MP total and the Energy drains's gave something like 216MP, and gave the same numbers regardless of cleric stance.

Here's what I have currently on 3113MP:

So that recovered 1306, 622+228+228+228. That's 42% of your MP you can recover in less than 10 seconds. 3 seconds per recast on the Energy drain, 60 seconds on the Aetherflow.

Now If I switch to WHM (4353MP):

After trying to make MP hit zero by spamming Holy and Aero. 1584mp after Shroud of Saints finished ticking, So roughly 105MP/sec since Shroud only lasts for 15 seconds. That's 36%. Since it has a 120 second Cooldown, a SCH would have recovered 84% of their MP without even counting the natural regeneration rate in the same time it would take the WHM to recover 72%. But also nobody stands around for 1-2 minutes just waiting for MP to regenerate unless they were recently revived.

As stated It's not an apples and oranges comparison.

The bolded part is the only thing you go right.

Shroud of Saints is a 2 min cool down that increases MP regeneration per tick. The amount restored is a flat of 212/tick for a total of 1,060 MP. It was 1,060 MP at ilvl 50; it's 1,060 MP at ilvl 130. The % it restores of your total MP is based on your amount of PIE as it will always be 1,080 / XXXX MP.

Aetherflow is a 1 minute cool down that restores 20% of the Scholars MP. Energy Drain provides a set amount of MP returned when used that scales with your level and not by damage dealt. At level 50 this amount is 266 MP.

If X = MP of SCH or WHM and Y = amount of Aetherflow stacks used for Energy Drain

WHM % restoration / min = ( 1,080 / X ) / 2 min
SCH % restoration / min = 20% + [ ( Y * 266 ) / X ]

As X is a function of PIE and class (and by extension, play style preference) and Y is a function of play style, it's a bit difficult to measure how the two compare, hence why you're accurate about the apples and oranges comparison. However, given the amount of MP you're restoring in your example, it's safe to say that SCH has a higher raw MP restoration process (1,306 MP / min) versus WHM and their use of Shroud (540 MP / min)

The pots say right on them how long their cooldowns are, so you're never going to get to use any of them more than once in that two minute window. And nowhere did I state it was going to give a minimum 20% of the caster's MP, I stated that the 460 points (from the Hi-Elixir),and has a same 20% maximum that the Aetherflow quotes. Hence the game's designed around having a 20% margin of error since you should be able to do all the non-raid bosses without using pots.

Given one's play style, WHM is meant for reactive healing, while SCH is meant for anticipation of incoming damage by placing shields before damage hits (thus having to heal less.) The average player is not that good. If they are wasting more than 20% of their MP on one job they should try the other, and if they still can't figure out how not to waste MP, then they should probably not play a caster class to begin with.

No, the 20% margin of error is just an arbitrary number you put forth based on seeing "20%" on many different items. The value of 20% on the potions is the amount it'll restore up to the maximum value provided. Notice how a NQ Hi-Elixir provides a higher maximum amount of MP restored than a NQ X-Ether despite both indicating "20%". That "20%" is just a value the devs put together for those particular potions. NQ Ether and Hi-Ether have a value of 28% and NQ Elixirs have a value of 24%.